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Author Topic:   The Problem of Suffering
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 6 of 107 (898118)
09-19-2022 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
09-19-2022 10:26 AM


Re: Biology Fails
Tangle writes:
I'm asking believers how they can believe that their god is benevolent when this kind of thing and worse happens routinely.
My dear Mother died in 2020 at the age of 97. I still miss her. She was never a churchgoing woman but she had a quiet faith. Her favorite pet slogan which we all remember to this day was "Whatever Will Be Will Be".
The Doris Day Que Sera Sera song.
I used to scold her gently, telling her that the proper phrase was "Whatever God wills will be." She would just look at me bemusedly and say, well of course, but she did not fall for organized religion or a skydaddy god that granted wishes. She stuck with her pet phrase.
Did she go to heaven? My belief is only that if heaven exists and she didn't make it there is no way I will make it either. And I don't care what the church says. She never preferred my loonie churches either.
All that I can add is that if God exists, He is under no obligation to magically cure all of our sicknesses. Whatever will be will be.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 09-19-2022 10:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 09-19-2022 12:40 PM Phat has replied
 Message 10 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 1:19 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 15 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 5:36 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 7 of 107 (898119)
09-19-2022 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by AZPaul3
09-19-2022 10:05 AM


Common Ground
AZ writes:
My uncle, a Methodist minister, used to lament wish-list prayers. God is going to do what god is going to do and our entreaties are useless.
He sounds like my Mother! And we grew up Methodist! Imagine that!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 10:05 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 9 of 107 (898126)
09-19-2022 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
09-19-2022 12:40 PM


Re: Biology Fails
That's too simplistic and is assuming that humans understand a given grand purpose, as well as God, might. To conclude that He is indifferent presupposes that He is obligated to prevent or cure your suffering. I suppose that you could dismiss Him and shop elsewhere.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 09-19-2022 12:40 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 1:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 09-19-2022 1:47 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 14 by dwise1, posted 09-19-2022 5:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 16 of 107 (898248)
09-21-2022 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taq
09-20-2022 5:36 PM


The Problem Of Evil
Looking at this topic from a more compassionate view, I can well see the argument against God. Tangle wants answers. We all do.
Perhaps the question, if one presupposes that GOD exists is what precisely is His job?

Edited by Phat, : added


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 5:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2022 1:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 09-21-2022 3:29 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 23 by Taq, posted 09-21-2022 6:44 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 24 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2022 8:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 20 of 107 (898266)
09-21-2022 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
09-21-2022 1:21 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
God has never been benevolent, though. This whole omnibenevolent thing is a myth.
Facts show that God has been portrayed as omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
The proper question at this point is, as you say, how anyone can believe such "bronze-age twaddle. I believe it because I need it. I need Him. Humans are far too shaky on their own. The universe has worse "odds" for survival than any lottery.
Just one example: The chance that a solar storm will soon wipe our precious technology back 200 years for as long as 2 years. What are the "odds" that humanity would man up and survive through such a setback?
I would certainly be a spineless wimp. You wont catch this old man chopping firewood for the building.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2022 1:21 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2022 4:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 09-21-2022 4:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 25 of 107 (898283)
09-21-2022 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by AZPaul3
09-21-2022 1:38 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Minchin and Mr.Deity. Two mouses two houses.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 09-21-2022 1:38 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 65 of 107 (898499)
09-25-2022 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
09-25-2022 2:14 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I suppose that you are NOT referring to Holy Communion

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 2:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 2:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 66 of 107 (898501)
09-25-2022 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
09-24-2022 9:16 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
ringo, addressing GIA writes:
In the analogy, God is playing with them. Try addressing the issue honestly.
Reminds me of these scriptures:
quote:
Isaiah 64:8 ESV -But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Isaiah 45:9 ESV-“Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles?
Jeremiah 18:1-23 ESV-The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words.” So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
Romans 9:21 ESV-Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (you would argue that this proves such a God is evil )
Isaiah 29:16 ESV-You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
Jeremiah 18:6 ESV-
“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 09-24-2022 9:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 2:35 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 72 of 107 (898509)
09-25-2022 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
09-25-2022 2:35 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
ringo writes:
I'm saying that a sensible potter doesn't make pots that smash each other.
Remember "It's A Wonderful Life?"
Mr.Potter wanted to own the whole town. He wanted to smash all competitors.
Back then, more people believed in a good God. You and jar seem to believe that IF God exists, He is both good and evil.
Greatest I AM seems to think that humans are as close to God as we can get, but while he decrees Religion and the God concept as evil, he himself acts rather ungodlike at times.
And I don't buy jars idea that God is "learning on the job". If anything, that would have been Jesus.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 2:35 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Greatest I am, posted 09-25-2022 3:16 PM Phat has replied
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 4:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 73 of 107 (898511)
09-25-2022 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Greatest I am
09-25-2022 2:48 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
If our natures are not from a supernatural God, then nature is our creator.
If so, where did this whole Greatest I AM come from? If anything, humans are evolving... possibly into as close to a God as we can get, but it is WE who are learning on the job. You, for example, are learning not to cuss opponents out as much.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Greatest I am, posted 09-25-2022 2:48 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Greatest I am, posted 09-25-2022 3:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 78 of 107 (898522)
09-25-2022 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Greatest I am
09-25-2022 3:16 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I will look at your OP but I am no longer an administrator.
I personally am not a dualist. I am more in line with Ellis Potter.
3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Greatest I am, posted 09-25-2022 3:16 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Greatest I am, posted 09-25-2022 4:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 80 of 107 (898526)
09-25-2022 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
09-25-2022 3:07 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Greatest I am writes:
What does your stagnant imagined realm produce or evolve into?
ringo writes:
Why does it need to produce anything? Why does it need to evolve into anything?
Because we are not efficient as a species where we are at now. What do you envision humans "evolving into"?
As far as producing something, you and I might agree that humans could produce more love and empathy.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 81 of 107 (898527)
09-25-2022 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
09-25-2022 3:39 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
ringo writes:
I am an omnivore but I don't get my entertainment from killing and eating my fellow creatures.
How about blowing up their buildings and themselves and taking their food? *cough*Ukraine War*cough*
One would think that humans need to evolve from producing ever better weapons of war.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:49 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 83 of 107 (898529)
09-25-2022 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
09-25-2022 3:44 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
ringo writes:
How are we not efficient as a species?
(I have to go to work so I will continue this later) Look at the Ukraine War that I mentioned above. Is that "efficient"?
ringo writes:
It would be a disservice to evolution to try to predict where it will go.
Disservice??!! Since when should we "serve" evolution? You seem to think that we will evolve into people with starships exploring an unknown universe! We have yet to clean up our own house here!!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:50 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 86 of 107 (898532)
09-25-2022 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
09-25-2022 3:49 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
You DO know that the whole Climate Change argument centers on who gets to try and clean it up---private enterprise or public government, of which you love and serve (as long as they are Liberals)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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