Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 69 (9101 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: sensei
Upcoming Birthdays: Tusko
Post Volume: Total: 904,370 Year: 1,251/14,231 Month: 175/1,076 Week: 284/234 Day: 50/86 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 46 of 2806 (898034)
09-17-2022 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 5:03 PM


Re: Video not available
quote:
Diversification in populations is simply a matter of replication. That's because replication gives the chance for mutations to occur.
Diversification is not identical with adaption.
quote:
It takes energy to replicate and if you force different variants to compete for a limited amount of energy, this will limit the population size of the most fit variant. This slows the diversification (adaptation) of all variants in the given environment. Most or all of the less fit variants end up going extinct.
More accurately then competition is needed for adaption, which is slower than unconstrained drift (which you mistakenly call “adaption”)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 5:03 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 5:29 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7480
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 47 of 2806 (898035)
09-17-2022 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 5:07 PM


Re: Video not available
Fat finger repeat? Sorry.

Edited by AZPaul3, : dup


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 5:07 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7480
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 48 of 2806 (898036)
09-17-2022 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 5:07 PM


Re: Video not available
Why did the Lenski team say the following:
I know the Lenski E. coli experiments. We went round and round on this last time you were pushing your ego here at EvC. You lost.
Message 83

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 5:07 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 49 of 2806 (898037)
09-17-2022 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by PaulK
09-17-2022 5:09 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Diversification in populations is simply a matter of replication. That's because replication gives the chance for mutations to occur.
PaulK:
Diversification is not identical with adaption.

That's correct, the diversification might also be neutral or detrimental.
Kleinman:
It takes energy to replicate and if you force different variants to compete for a limited amount of energy, this will limit the population size of the most fit variant. This slows the diversification (adaptation) of all variants in the given environment. Most or all of the less fit variants end up going extinct.
PaulK:
More accurately then competition is needed for adaption, which is slower than unconstrained drift (which you mistakenly call “adaption”)

Experimental evidence shows you are incorrect. The probability of an adaptive mutation depends on the number of replication a particular variant is able to do. That is why the Lenski variants evolve more slowly than the Kishony variants. Lenski energy limits his populations which slows the growth of the individual variant populations. Kishony's colonies easily achieve population sizes of a billion or more. That size population gives a reasonable probability that all possible mutations will occur on some member of that colony when a mutation rate is 1e-9.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2022 5:09 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2022 2:05 AM Kleinman has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5561
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 50 of 2806 (898040)
09-17-2022 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 4:40 PM


Re: Video not available
I'm not trying to bullshit you.
No, that is all that you are doing. That is all that you have to work with.
All that creationists have is bullshit. That is all that you have to offer, to present. That is all that you have ever presented in about 544 messages!
Is that your god? The God of Bullshit?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:40 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 7:56 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 51 of 2806 (898041)
09-17-2022 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by dwise1
09-17-2022 7:23 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
I'm not trying to bullshit you.
dwis1:
No, that is all that you are doing. That is all that you have to work with.

All that creationists have is bullshit. That is all that you have to offer, to present. That is all that you have ever presented in about 544 messages!

Is that your god? The God of Bullshit?

It is strange that you would think that physics, math, and experimental evidence are bullshit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 7:23 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 8:15 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 3:43 PM Kleinman has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5561
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 52 of 2806 (898042)
09-17-2022 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 4:40 PM


Re: Video not available
I'm not trying to bullshit you. I'm trying to explain to you the physics of Darwinian evolution. Since you are so impatient, just read this:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution
Whaaaaat??? Two-slightly-plus pages of bullshit????
You need to join forces with MrIntelligentDesign. That guy is a truly a legend in his own mind, just like you. And he publishes his nonsense on vanity sites, just like you. Except his nonsense show a lot more work going into them than ... yours. I mean, he's nuttier than a fruitcake, but at least he shows up ... sometimes. You ... eeh!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:40 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 8:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 53 of 2806 (898043)
09-17-2022 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 4:29 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
What fun is physics without math? Think about what the meaning of the carrying capacity of an environment means.
Well what are you waiting for? Let's bring on the math and have some fun, Professor Kleinman.
And don't leave me hanging about what the different populations are competing for. Was my guess of lebensraum right?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:29 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 8:42 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 54 of 2806 (898044)
09-17-2022 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 4:40 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
I'm not trying to bullshit you. I'm trying to explain to you the physics of Darwinian evolution. Since you are so impatient, just read this:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution
Hey, you promised math, Professor Kleinman. Where's the math?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:40 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5561
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 55 of 2806 (898045)
09-17-2022 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 7:56 PM


Re: Video not available
It is strange that you would think that physics, math, and experimental evidence are bullshit.
No! I do not!
Rather, it is your own perversive abuse of those disciplines that I think is bullshit.
 
Look and learn, you idiot!
You are using quote tags. NO!
Use qs tags to quote another member.
If you have no clue what to do, USE THE PEEK MODE!!!!!! You stupid idiot! Duh???
Look for somebody else's message where they do something you'd like to do.
Go into Peek mode to see exactly what he had typed in.
Use it!
That is exactly how simple it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 7:56 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 56 of 2806 (898046)
09-17-2022 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by dwise1
09-17-2022 8:04 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
I'm not trying to bullshit you. I'm trying to explain to you the physics of Darwinian evolution. Since you are so impatient, just read this:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution
dwise1:
Whaaaaat??? Two-slightly-plus pages of bullshit????

You need to join forces with MrIntelligentDesign. That guy is a truly a legend in his own mind, just like you. And he publishes his nonsense on vanity sites, just like you. Except his nonsense show a lot more work going into them than ... yours. I mean, he's nuttier than a fruitcake, but at least he shows up ... sometimes. You ... eeh!!

It doesn't take much to explain the physics of Darwinian evolution if you have taken and passed a high school-level physics course. Perhaps you don't understand that it takes energy to replicate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 8:04 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 57 of 2806 (898047)
09-17-2022 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Percy
09-17-2022 8:06 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
What fun is physics without math? Think about what the meaning of the carrying capacity of an environment means.
Percy:
Well what are you waiting for? Let's bring on the math and have some fun, Professor Kleinman.

OK, let's start with the math of competition. Haldane's model in his "cost of natural selection" paper is a good starting point. You can find that paper here:
JSTOR: Access Check
Note that Haldane's model has been proven to be a conservation of energy process. You have to modify his model for the particular case. For example, Lenski's experiment includes bottlenecking so you have to modify Haldane model as shown here:
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
There are a couple of ways to model adaptation. You can use the "at least one rule from probability theory as shown here in this paper:
The basic science and *********** of random mutation and natural selection
Or you can use a Markov chain random walk calculation to compute the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring as show here:
The Kishony Mega-Plate Experiment, a Markov Process
Note that either means of computing the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring gives the same result. Either formulation work for the Lenski or Kishony experiment because they are both single selection pressure experiments.
Percy:
And don't leave me hanging about what the different populations are competing for. Was my guess of lebensraum right?
Populations compete for the energy available in the given environment. That's because it takes energy to survive and replicate. Overcrowding may be a selection condition but in and of itself, it is food (energy) that biological populations compete over.
BTW. is m-thematics now a forbidden word?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 8:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 09-22-2022 10:10 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 176 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 10:51 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21346
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 58 of 2806 (898048)
09-17-2022 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 4:50 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
AZPaul3:
Yeah, the same ego-based bs you posted the last time you were here. Rejected.
Distribution of fixed beneficial mutations and the rate of adaptation in asexual populations
Brilliant response, Professor Kleinman. Bravissimo!
There was one part I didn't get. Could you explain this equation from the analysis section:
Thanks a bunch!
--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Make equation easier to read.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:50 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 9:47 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1687
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 59 of 2806 (898049)
09-17-2022 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Percy
09-17-2022 9:11 PM


Re: Video not available
Percy:
Brilliant response, Professor Kleinman. Bravissimo!

There was one part I didn't get. Could you explain this equation from the analysis section:

Thanks a bunch!
Sorry, I do not know how to format the equation in dBCodes, but let's call it equation [3]. Their problem is that they are assuming that biological evolution obeys an exponential (or exponential-like) distribution function. The correct distribution function for biological evolutionary adaptation is the binomial distribution. The random experiment is a replication and the two possible outcomes are does an adaptive mutation occur or does an adaptive mutation not occur. If you go back and read this paper,
The basic science and *********** of random mutation and natural selection
I show how to derive the probability equation for at least one occurrence of that adaptive mutation occurring as a function of mutation rate and the number of replications. Simply go back to first principles and consider the stochastic system and the correct probability distribution becomes apparent.
The advantage of deriving the governing equation by first principles is that you can easily extend the model to multiple simultaneous selection conditions. What you end up having are nested binomial probability problems.
I hope this makes sense to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 9:11 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Percy, posted 09-18-2022 9:34 AM Kleinman has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 60 of 2806 (898050)
09-18-2022 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 5:29 PM


Re: Video not available
quote:
Experimental evidence shows you are incorrect.
Really? You’ve already misrepresented Lenski once.
quote:
That is why the Lenski variants evolve more slowly than the Kishony variants. Lenski energy limits his populations which slows the growth of the individual variant populations.
That is not what the Lenski paper you quoted says. Lenski argues that in asexually reproducing life, large populations slow adaption because more advantageous mutations are available.
Message 41
Distribution of fixed beneficial mutations and the rate of adaptation in asexual populations
Why did the Lenski team say the following:
quote:
When large asexual populations adapt, competition between simultaneously segregating mutations slows the rate of adaptation and restricts the set of mutations that eventually fix. This phenomenon of interference arises from competition between mutations of different strengths as well as competition between mutations that arise on different fitness backgrounds.
quote:
Kishony's colonies easily achieve population sizes of a billion or more. That size population gives a reasonable probability that all possible mutations will occur on some member of that colony when a mutation rate is 1e-9.
And, per Lenski that should slow adaption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 5:29 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Kleinman, posted 09-18-2022 10:54 AM PaulK has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2023