Testing The Christian Apologists

Like the threat of eternity in a lake of fire hanging over your every action is not force?Thank you, Phat, for pointing up more religious nutzoidness.

A truly excellent idea. When will you start?

Several reasons.
1) Assuming that both the Bible and the apologetics are human reasoning, written, edited, and redacted by humans, and attempting to explain a belief system via story, podcast, or oral argument, I see an apologist as one who passionately believes in the story as interpreted and not just as taught. Is it really relevant for you to defend or attempt to defend the authors of Genesis? In context, Jesus later claimed that Satan was and is the father of lies. If so, why on earth would you push the story that God was the one who lied? Just as the Pharisees claimed that Moses was their "father" or source, or origin, you claim that logic, reason, critical thinking, and studying ancient texts so that YOU can understand the meaning is superior to Jesus (character in ancient texts) saying that His sheep hear His voice...not a bunch of atheists and humanists who critically debunk the book and specifically its two main characters. [/rant] (got carried away a bit)

Oh, AZ! Always taking the AZ way out! If we ever did actually get together, gaze upwards to the milky way, and ponder the wisdom of the universe, we would end up discussing how it got here, mythos and ancient meaning vs critical thinking and rationality, and accusations of making stuff up.jar once put it best. GOD either exists or He doesn't. The universe does not know any more than its Creator does. Granted, science and physics will show us even more amazing things that we don't know now.Scripture tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.We are not the source of all wisdom. Nor is the universe. But that's just a belief.

You take one snippet of the story and allow it to scare and dissuade you from believing in the story. Must I go over this again? Hell (if it exists) was never created for humans. It is simply an alternative place for fallen angels and the spirits of those who seek them.Ask yourself: Would you, a rational man who dismisses the existence of One Holy Spirit as Creaator, ever seek another seemingly wonderful place via a lesser spirit? Would you allow the chemical effects of peyote or a magic mushroom to lead you into a seemingly magical place that the universe seems to beckon you toward? Would you, despite laughing at all gods...be they fallen angels or Creators, feel drawn towards the ground of all meaning?(or so you think) the majik of physics, the answers that are as new as the latest star and yet as old as the universe itself?Furthermore, would you urge me to join you on this adventure?If so, why be surprised when I invite you to join me on my journey? Are we humans meant to find a common consensus? One answer? Or are there many? As numerous as stars...myths, legends? Perhaps even the universe itself is not monolithic but is one of an infinite number of multiverses!I await your comments.

On the contrary, I have great respect for education - but a PhD doesn't make him right. I do have a degree. I don't mention it because it has no bearing on whether I'm right or wrong. Logic, mine or anybody else's SHOULD be considered highly. We'd all like to see you use some. Don't try to be clever. (If they brought that argument here, they would lose.) But you don't argue. You assert.Go ahead and give us an argument for thinking that Jesus is personified good and Satan is personified evil. Not at all. Every time you assert without argument that God is A or Satan is B, you're making my point. Your God and Satan are figments of your imagination and nothing else. Make an argument. You're not even defending your original assertion that it, "Depends on what power the tools have." It doesn't depend on what power the tools have. That is utter nonsense, as I said. Turning children loose in a workshop full of power tools is evil. Any sane person would agree. Adam and Eve were children. They didn't have the knowledge of good and evil. They didn't know that power tools were dangerous. They thought they were just fun toys. Children love noisy toys.But God turned them loose in the world, and what's worse, He forbade them to acquire the knowledge of good and evil. He told them not to read the manual. He withheld from them the warning that you shouldn't use the tool in the rain, you shouldn't stand on the tool and you shouldn't touch the blade when the tool is running.Turning children loose in a workshop full of power tool is evil. If you don't understand that, you don't know the first thing about evil.That's why you have no argument for your claim that God is good and Satan is evil. It's plain that God does do evil. If children didn't have to be pushed in the direction of Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, etc., they'd all believe in the same God. They don't, so somebody must be choosing a direction for them. Wrong. The logic is quite simple. If God is "all-powerful", then He has the "power" to do "all". It's right there in the word. Nothing obvious about it. Satan doesn't exist, except in your head. So it's possible that your God, if He existed, is all-powerful. It's only your theology that denies it. Why should we conclude that? I get to use the existing definitions, which is exactly what I'm doing. YOU are the one who is trying to re-define "all things" to mean "some things". Why do you need to guess? I have told you that explicitly many times. If you read my posts, you'd know that. Ain't no fallen angel. Yes, let's say that. In fact, I did say that. You say that like you haven't heard us telling you that over and over and over again.

Nice cherries.

That's a bold-faced lie. Jesus said plainly in Matthew 25 that the fake Christians go to everlasting fire. Please don't. It's a lie.

Fear is a heightened awareness, notice, mixed with the dread of pending harm. Wisdom is not just knowledge but awareness of how that knowledge can be used and thus propose potential actions.Interpret this verse as: being aware of the evil of your god is the first step in countering it.You should feel embarrassed that some atheist is required to interpret holy scripture for you.

Uhh, that kinda is their intended effect so you get a firm hell yeah on that one. Snippet? The most evil punishment ever devised, and devised specifically to provide jesus to save you from it? That snippet?The very reason for jesus' existential existence is to provide an escape from this "snippet". It is the very center of your religion. Without this "snippet" you have no christianity. Hard to tell but if you are referring to reality then, yeah, I'm drawn. And, yes, we've been trying to get you to join us for decades now. You haven't noticed that effort? What surprise? That is the great commission for you jesus freaks, is it not? I mean, you may not do as he commands in all things but proselytizing, preaching, that's something you like. Between reality and fantasy? Already there. Your religious fantasy lost. And maybe the Grand Unicorn poops in the universe next door.

Who is the liar between us? The scripture plainly says jar was the one who "suggested" that the goats were fake Christians. Perhaps the questions should be:

Who was cursed?

Who cursed them? Jesus or themselves?

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I maintain that hell was never meant for humans, but I will add the qualifier: ALL Humans.

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Perhaps this supports your initial (and ongoing ad nauseum) charge that I never do what Jesus told me to do.

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If in fact, I end up not seeing Jesus in the poor, I will have essentially cursed myself since I not only read it in the book (sans dust) but hear it all the time from my northern neighbor who accuses me of lying whenever I think!

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My argument is that God does not curse us. God cursed satan. We end up in hell (created for the devil and his angels) by following satan and ignoring Jesus.

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"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
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“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

Not in my belief. God is not only the Creator of all seen and unseen, He is the Grand designer of each and every multiverse that you can count. Now to be fair, hell, if it exists, may be the place where a grand unicorn exists...just waiting to jab you with its horn.{ever had a bad acid trip?)

Edited by Phat, .

You've read the book.

Why do you call me good? There is none good but God.

I and my Father are one.

May they be one as we are one.

depart you cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

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My sheep hear my voice.

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Thus...sheep follow the shepherd, who represents personified good.
goats follow nobody yet end up with the devil and his angels.

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I suppose that the devil *does not exist* so I have no case for personified evil...yet.

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ringo writes:

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Message 3131

Since you don't believe satan exists, you label God as the monster. Perhaps that is one reason you threw the
whole story away hook, line, and sinker.

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Also do the math.

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Jesus: I and my father are one. (1)
demons: We are legion. (more than 1). Many. Unicorns, buddhas, tacos with Jesus on them, shrouds of Turin, shiny new corvettes, SI swimsuit editions...etc etc.

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You can throw them ALL away, including the One. But in your head, you gotta serve somebody!

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Also I might again mention the book of revelation. Message 119

Phat writes:

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Rev 1:1 NIV writes:

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The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

God is showing something which must soon take place. Foreknowledge?

Rev 1:4 writes:

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Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come

Past, Present, and Future.
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GOD was, Is, and Is to come. God is past, present, and future.
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So we have our Christ...

Rev 1:17-18 writes:

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"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!

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And we have our AntiChrist...

Rev 17:8 writes:

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The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

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Once Was implies that this creature had a beginning...was created...not eternal. This creature is not in the present moment...and yet is in the future.
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God foreknows nothing and yet knows everything that happens in His eternal presence. Lucifer chose to become satan...just as we choose our destiny on a moment-by-moment basis...and our present choice becomes our future reality. We become the decisions that we make. God is not evil ...but he beast is evil. God is not evil for allowing the beast to exist. The Beast once chose to become a beast rather than an angel. Similarly, we choose our destiny.

Edited by Phat, : added comment

Edited by Phat, .

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"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

You are. Your own quote from Matthew 25 says that the fake Christians will go to everlasting fire. You can't weasel out of it by claiming that the fire wasn't "created for them." They go there no matter whom it was created for. The fake Christians, like you, who say, "Lord! Lord!" instead of DOING what He told them to do. Jesus cursed them. Nothing in Matthew 25 suggests otherwise. Jesus cursed them. It doesn't matter whom it was "meant" for. The fact is that Jesus sends humans there. That "qualifier" - i.e attempted lie - is irrelevent. SOME humans ARE sent to hell by Jesus. Case closed. No you have not. Jesus has cursed you. Your own quote says that directly: "Depart from me, you cursed." You never think. I point out your lies when you lie. Again, that's not an argument. It's an assertion. If you did think, you wouldn't say something that denies the Bible and defies logic.

I have - and that's how I know that God Himself said, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) And God also creates evil, as He said Himself ((Isaiah 45:7).The rest of your points don't seem to fit into your "argument" at all. But Jesus DOESN"T represent personified good. If He is God and God creates evil, then He represents good AND evil. Goats - like you - PRETEND to follow Jesus - and Jesus sends them to everlasting fire. It has nothing to do with whether or not Satan exists. God Himself SAID that He creates evil (Isaiah 45:7). There is no need for any other source of evil. Wrong, as usual. I threw away each hook, line and sinker - of your theology, not of the Bible - individually, because they're individually nonsense. Maybe I serve Bob Dylan. What has that got to do with what we're talking about?Don't try to Gish-gallop me. I have answered your points and I expect a response to my answers.