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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 299 of 3694 (897447)
09-05-2022 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by GDR
09-05-2022 3:51 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Sure, but posters here claim that because there is no evidence that there is a god as evidence that there isn't. Bit of a double standard possibly?
Obviously not. Evidence isn’t proof and a positive claim isn’t a negative. So whichever way you meant it you’re wrong.
quote:
I would disagree as I contend that there is such a thing as philosophical evidence.
I wonder what you mean by that. But then we already know that you have odd ideas about evidence.
quote:
In addition it is suggested that morality has come about because of personal interactions alone, or something like that), which is strictly from observation. In that scenario, the observation could just as easily lead to the belief that the facility for that to happen came from an external moral intelligence. Neither view is scientific or evidenced.

This is just nonsense. I get that you don’t like the science-based explanation for morality - but to dismiss it like this without even understanding it is neither rational nor intellectually honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 3:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 6:07 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 317 of 3694 (897466)
09-06-2022 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by GDR
09-05-2022 6:07 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I have no problem with what you call the science based evidence for morality, although I don't see any science in the conclusion
Yes you do have a serious problem with the science-based explanation for morality. You continually misrepresent it and dismiss it.
quote:
I just don't see at as being the whole story.
In the past you have continually insisted that it cannot be the whole story. But you have never produced valid reasons. Even if you have - finally - retreated from that you are still insisting on a pointless addition which serves only to mystify.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 6:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 1:51 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 320 of 3694 (897469)
09-06-2022 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by GDR
09-05-2022 7:13 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Philosophical, theological, and observational.
I find my experience to see things as Lewis did when he made this statement.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”
So basically you believe in Christianity because you force-fit everything into your world-view. You imagine “evidence” because you believe.
quote:
Now obviously that is not a scientific statement, but it is consistent with my own experience in how I understand my life and the world I live in. I know that statement will get no agreement from any of you here but it resonates with me.
Oh, I’ll agree that your mental problems are related to your beliefs, but I think you have cause and effect the wrong way round,

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 348 of 3694 (897517)
09-07-2022 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by GDR
09-07-2022 1:51 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
With evolution you can go back thousands of years which provides a physical record of our physical evolution. You can speculate that altruism grew along with the evolutionary process without any external input but it isn't science.
Again, that is not what I’m talking about. So you are only demonstrating - again - that you have a problem with the idea.
I would also add that not assuming an external input without evidence is exactly what science DOES do.
quote:
OK, if you like the idea of a god meme is an add, on which you can say is unnecessary, but in reality you can't even know that
A “god meme” would just be the idea of a god. I think we can reasonably say that worker bees lack any such idea - or even the capability to have any such idea. Clearly it is unnecessary for them.
quote:
It is belief, and if you start from the atheistic position then of course there is no question, and if someone doesn't agree they must be not too bright.
There you go with the persecution complex. I have never suggested that you “aren’t too bright”. I do point out that you have a habit of making obviously false claims, as you are doing now.
quote:
However, if you start from a theistic position it makes sense.
If desperately clutching at straws with no regard for intellectually honesty “makes sense” for theists, then I am glad not to be a theist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 1:51 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 6:18 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 362 of 3694 (897545)
09-07-2022 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by GDR
09-07-2022 4:40 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
When I look at things like evolution it does point towards the idea that it is evolving towards something which would mean that there likely is some long term point to existence, which is suggestive of a designer.
That would be another example of you seeing what you want to see. And jumping to conclusions on top of it.
quote:
Posters here see morality as evolving within the mind and developed with in a culture which is what I meant be it being naturally infectious.
While there is a memetic component simply leaving out everything else is missing the point. The basis is in evolution, with culture elaborating on that foundation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 4:40 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 367 of 3694 (897550)
09-07-2022 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
09-07-2022 5:14 PM


quote:
Obviously, and although you can't see it I have tried to show why the theistic belief is the most plausible conclusion.
It looks more like you’re trying to hide from the fact that theistic belief is NOT a plausible conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 5:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 375 of 3694 (897559)
09-08-2022 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by GDR
09-07-2022 6:13 PM


quote:
In my thirties after reading Mere Christianity I started back to church and came to my own ever evolving conclusions
My conclusion from reading that is that it should be a great embarrassment to the legacy of C S Lewis. It really is awfully bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 6:13 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Theodoric, posted 09-08-2022 7:51 AM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 376 of 3694 (897560)
09-08-2022 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by GDR
09-07-2022 6:18 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Likely all of their traits have evolved naturally, however they know how to co-operate but I don't think that they are able to love or have free will.
And despite the fact that they do not follow your ideas of evolution at all it still works. That is the point. There IS evolutionary value in cooperation and your denials just caricature evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by GDR, posted 09-07-2022 6:18 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 434 of 3694 (897698)
09-10-2022 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by GDR
09-09-2022 8:10 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
OK, I'll try again but I will only be told that it doesn't count as evidence
Well, you don’t seem to understand the concept of evidence at all, as we have seen in last discussion.
quote:
1/Conscious life exists in a body that is made up of mindless particles.
Why is this evidence? After all that is the only way consciousness is known to exist. Isn’t that evidence against any disembodied intelligence?
quote:
2/Sentient intelligent life exists.
And how is that evidence?
quote:
3/We sense right and wrong and have a sense of morality capable of altruism.
Which is adequately explained without any need to invoke your “cosmic intelligence”. Which only complicates the issue and doesn’t really explain it at all. So that really isn’t evidence in your favour.
quote:
4/We can find beauty in nature and we are able to create beauty in picture and song.
I have to say that isn’t evidence either. Why would it be? Isn’t this the worst sort of “God of the Gaps” argument?
quote:
5/We are able to find coherence in our universe through science.
I don’t think that counts either. Why would we expect a God to produce such a universe rather than a miraculous and incomprehensible universe?
quote:
6/We exist as individuals and can never experience someone else's experience.
I think this is another case of you picking up an apologetic argument and completely failing to understand it. The idea that it is somehow evidence of God seems to be complete and utter nonsense. If you want it to be taken as evidence you need to explain it, because it just looks like a bizarre non-sequitur.
quote:
7/The whole process of the creation of new life is so remarkable
That looks like a highly selective view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by GDR, posted 09-09-2022 8:10 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 463 of 3694 (897808)
09-12-2022 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by GDR
09-12-2022 3:09 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
It is my subjective conclusion that it is ludicrous to think that things such as consciousness and morality can evolve from collections of mindless particles, therefore requiring an external intelligence.
If you had a less “ludicrous” explanation for how this “external intelligence” could possess consciousness and morality you might have something.
In the absence of that I think we are quite justified in following the evidence which points the other way. Which is much better than making things up because you don’t like the way that the evidence points.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by GDR, posted 09-12-2022 3:09 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 530 of 3694 (897932)
09-16-2022 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by GDR
09-15-2022 4:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Well, if God exists then we might want to ask the question of why he bothered to bring us into existence. It seems reasonable and even logical that there would be a purpose to it, and if that is the case you would think we might be interested in that purpose, and what it should mean to our life.
Or we might reasonably conclude that there is no sensible purpose and that therefore the idea that a God brought us into existence is somewhat lacking.
quote:
I don't see it a case being strong enough at all, unless it's a pride thing. I'm concerned with truth, knowing that it is belief and faith.
If you were concerned with the truth you wouldn’t try to prop up your belief with obvious falsehoods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 4:45 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 552 of 3694 (897970)
09-17-2022 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by GDR
09-16-2022 7:24 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source.
Because you don’t care about the truth, only about propping up your personal belief,
Obviously this sort of thinking leads to an infinite regress. And it seems obvious to me that evolution is a more likely cause of intelligence than anything you might propose for your assumed “cosmic intelligence” - and that can be backed by at least some evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by GDR, posted 09-16-2022 7:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:30 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 578 of 3694 (898178)
09-20-2022 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by GDR
09-19-2022 8:30 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I care very much about the truth, and like you and everyone else here we keep propping up our own beliefs.
In reality you don’t.
quote:
Evolution, without an external intelligence itself leads to an infinite regress of processes.
And there is a fine example of you preferring a falsehood to prop up your beliefs. Thanks for proving my point.
quote:
Also we are fundamentally unable to perceive of a world, (although as far as I understand it we can get a picture of more than one dimension of time mathematically), with more than our one time dimension and therefore cannot picture an eternal consciousness. It is faith. With we can move around infinitely with 3 spatial dimensions, so maybe we could do the same with 3 dimensions of time. I'm not in anyway suggesting that represents reality, except that it is one way of getting a picture of an eternal existence.
And this is just irrelevant obfuscation, another example.
quote:
You can observe and learn a lot about how evolution happened. What is the evidence though, that there can't be an external intelligence behind the natural processes?
And another example. The only evidence you can have is the lack of evidence for such a thing. You can’t get at the truth by just making things up and demanding that they be disproved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by GDR, posted 09-21-2022 9:26 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 579 of 3694 (898179)
09-20-2022 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by GDR
09-19-2022 8:49 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Incidentally, I hold the minority view that Matthew was the first Gospel written and written early on. There is a very good book written by David Alan Black that presents a solid case for Matthean priority. Why Four Gospels. I don't agree with Black's more literalist views but I do find his case for Matthean priority compelling.
Is that where you got the idea that the use of the third person was evidence of authorship? Did Black actually say that? I’d appreciate a quote if he did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by GDR, posted 09-22-2022 12:17 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 588 of 3694 (898303)
09-22-2022 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by GDR
09-21-2022 9:26 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
OK. What is the process that kicked off all of the processes necessary for all the different branches of the evolutionary processes?
That would be abiogenesis (complicated by the problems of defining life, but still).
quote:
What was the process that produced a process for consciousness, sentience etc?
This is just too vague to answer. Or it’s just abiogenesis again.
quote:
What was the process that created the first cell and what was the process that caused a single cell to multiply
Are you assuming that the first life was cellular? If so, it’s abiogenesis again. If not, the first is evolution and the second doesn’t exist.
quote:
What was the process that caused compounds to form and so on and so on. I guess using the term infinite is too strong, however you can go right back to the BB and then into a vast unknown.
What you really mean is hat you can go on demanding “processes” to explain everything but we aren’t allowed to do the same to you. Our thinking does not imply an infinite regress where yours clearly does.
quote:
It seems simpler to me to have a cosmic intelligence who always existed outside of our world with it's one dimension of time being responsible.
Sure, you find caring about the truth too much work.
quote:
This is another example of you avoiding the question. We both know that this is about belief. Neither view can be proven scientifically or in any other manner.
And there you go again evading my point and trying to pass off unfalsifiability as a virtue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by GDR, posted 09-21-2022 9:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
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