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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 842 of 1086 (872893)
03-06-2020 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 841 by ringo
03-04-2020 2:20 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
I listened to Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty.
ringo writes:
I don't know who they are.
quote:
Daniel Edwin Barker (born June 25, 1949) is an American atheist activist and musician who served as an evangelical Christian preacher and composer for 19 years but left Christianity in 1984. He and his wife Annie Laurie Gaylor are the current co-presidents of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.[2] He has written numerous articles for Freethought Today, an American freethought newspaper. He is the author of several books including Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist.[3](...)Matthew Wade Dillahunty (born March 31, 1969) is an American atheist activist who is the current president of the Atheist Community of Austin, a position he had previously held from 2006 to 2013.[3][4][5][6] He has hosted the Austin-based webcast and cable-access television show The Atheist Experience since 2005,[7][8][9] and formerly hosted the live Internet radio show Non-Prophets Radio.[10][11] He is also the founder of and a contributor to the counter-apologetics encyclopedia Iron Chariots and its subsidiary sites. He is regularly engaged in formal debates and travels the United States speaking to local secular organizations and university groups as part of the Secular Student Alliance's Speakers Bureau. (...)Raised Southern Baptist, Dillahunty considered becoming a minister.[2] His in-depth examination of his Christian beliefs, instead of bolstering his faith as he had intended, led him to no longer believe in the basic tenets of Christianity and, eventually, all religions. (...)One of Dillahunty's recurring themes has been the superiority of secular morality over religious morality. His key contentions on the issue are that secular moral systems are inclusive, dynamic, encourage change, and serve the interests of the participants, whereas religious moral systems serve only the interests of an external authority.
ringo writes:
You don't have to actually think about anything because you already have The Answer
If by that you mean that I don't throw away my old answers whenever I come across new ones, you are correct. I do consider the new ones on their own merit and in light of my observations and understanding of humans and human nature...gleaned from my college studies on Psychology.
Do you expect me to throw away everything I have believed as you did? I think you are the loopy one in that regard. You deify evidence as if its the default standard for everything, and have somehow gathered enough of it to reject God. I, on the other hand, would need better reasons than a few scholarly lectures from educated people to throw my beliefs away.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by ringo, posted 03-04-2020 2:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 843 by ringo, posted 03-06-2020 11:09 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 844 of 1086 (872972)
03-07-2020 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by ringo
03-06-2020 11:09 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
You would need "more" than facts to stop clinging to a lack of facts? Whatever happened to your claim that you consider new ideas on their merit?
I believe that humans are in a war of ideologies. I believe that Satan is not simply a plot device representing our own selfish thinking but is an external reality. I have seen enough. Satan was allowed to exist in order to temper us and make those who have an ear stronger. Resisting evil is not an automatic response from every human...many are weak and would as soon roll over and sleep it off or find a way to justify it and form a consensus with it. As for facts, there are some instances in life where they simply are unavailable. The absence of evidence is in and of itself no reason to conclude evidence of absence.
...you don't give the new answers proper consideration because you assume a priori that they're wrong (because you want them to be wrong).
Fair enough. You are no different, however. You would be open to having a discussion with God if somehow he could be brought to your house, at your level, and be plopped down on your couch. You likely would grill Him, citing His propensity to "fry your friends and kill innocents, among other things. He is in no way as user-friendly as you hope, so you simply ignore him. Granted I ignore the homeless guy on the way to work always in the same spot begging for change...though I have given it to him on two occasions recently. Why has he any right to everybody's spare change any more than you or i do?
You might argue why God has any right to everybody's submission. The only reason you even have such a right is that He allowed it.
You're constantly saying that you refuse to give up your beliefs.
Lets put it this way. Say that at one time perhaps ten years ago, you and three friends, enjoying a sober day in the mountains, encountered a UFO. You clearly remember every feeling connected with the experience and even what the round-headed alien said to you. You even felt the touch of their scaley skin brushing against you. Your friends experienced the same event. So along comes evidence which refutes that possibility. Do you simply throw away your memory and your impressions?
Yes. If you have really thought about it, I don't see how you could do anything else.
You follow evidence and facts and dismiss the experience as something in your head that could trick you.
Keep in mind that I have no reason to accept or reject unicorns. The encyclopedia says they do not exist, so I leave it at that.
I would argue that I have a few reasons to accept God while you feel otherwise.
You seem to do fine without Him. In fact, you would prefer that the God peddled by organized religion not be real.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by ringo, posted 03-06-2020 11:09 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by jar, posted 03-07-2020 4:25 PM Phat has replied
 Message 848 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 2:33 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 846 of 1086 (872976)
03-07-2020 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 845 by jar
03-07-2020 4:25 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
It really is about what you do.
I know that. What I was telling ringo is that this same homeless guy parks himself at the same corner every day and collects from people stopped at the light. I give when I feel compelled to give and not out of obligation. Just because he has his hand out is no reason to give every single time I see him. heck, he probably makes more than I do!
And what of the day when I cannot work? If I save nothing I will have nothing. I don't see Bernie and the liberals getting elected anytime soon and I am bright enough to know that they cant conjure social money out of thin air. The nation is already far in debt.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by jar, posted 03-07-2020 4:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 847 by jar, posted 03-07-2020 5:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 849 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 2:43 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 850 of 1086 (873017)
03-08-2020 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 849 by ringo
03-08-2020 2:43 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Actually I agree with your Mother. I think I met an angel once...no evidence except that he seemed to glow and he had wisdom that one wouldn't expect out of a homeless man. I don't mind giving and helping people. It makes me feel better too. To be honest, however, if I found out someday that God was not real and that all I had been doing was helping my fellow humans, I would feel a bit disappointed.
Its true I would have been doing good. But I really really hope that God exists, is Who we expect Him to be characterwise, and is just waiting to bestow good things on all His children.
I will admit there are valid questions from his critics.
  • Why does He not help us now?(Perhaps he does behind the scenes)
  • Why do so many suffer? Its the only thing that puts a damper on my blessings. Its a bit like getting served at a big feast first and having to not eat until everyone gets served..

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 849 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 2:43 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 851 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 5:01 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 852 of 1086 (873055)
    03-09-2020 10:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 851 by ringo
    03-08-2020 5:01 PM


    Re: The point of Christianity
    I remember my encounter. I had recently gotten "saved" and was full of love for everybody. The church that I attended had turned a homeless guy away, and I went outside to talk to him. (they were mad that he tracked mud into the sanctuary when he wanted food. he was also inebriated.) So I went out to talk to him. He lived in the railyard next door to the church.(homeless) and I gave him some money and told him why they turned him away.(It was Brent, one of the deacons, who basically had the philosophy that a church would/should feed the needy but not "devils".(drunk people, I assume) After I showed the man respect, he suddenly seemed to glow and began telling me that I would be blessed for helping him.
    hen you completely missed the point of what my mother said. She meant that you wouldn't recognize them.
    The thing is, I never thought anything about him being an angel until after I had talked with him, perhaps several hours later when the possibility just hit me. Mind you, I wouldn't expect anything but its always nice to know that God appreciates our selfless love towards others.
    Again, if I someday found out that God was not real, I would probably go through a personal crisis. It's not that I don't find value in helping people. Its that I count on being taken care of in the grand scheme of things. I suppose that the homeless feel that way too.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 851 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 5:01 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 853 by ringo, posted 03-09-2020 11:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 854 of 1086 (897780)
    09-12-2022 10:45 AM


    Is God A Relative?
    Ringo of Saskatchewan has been chomping at the bit for me to stand and debate/discuss absolute truth vs relative truth in the context of being a believer as opposed to an eternally skeptical critical thinker.
    I expanded my argument based on the beliefs of Peter Kreeft, a respected apologist.
    Here is the basic framework for this argument:
    quote:

    Absolute Truth vs. Relativism
    Relativism is the belief that there are no objective, absolute truths. What's true for one person may not be true for another.
    The relativist's position is self-defeating because the relativist is making an absolute truth claim when they say, "all truth is relative."
    If truth is relative, on what basis can we judge or condemn the actions of people with whom we disagree (For example, Adolph Hitler or Osama Bin Laden)?
    Truth is simply the correspondence of what you know or say to what actually is.
    Without a society governed by absolute truths, civilization would fall apart. For example, imagine a world where red stop signs didn't absolutely mean, "stop" for all people.

    To say that something is absolutely true means that it is independently true for all people, even if they do not know it or recognize it to be true. The opposite of absolute truth is relative truth. To say that something is relatively true means that it can be true for one person and not for another. And in this context, we are discussing the hypothetical of a Creator Of All Seen And Unseen, a phrase coined by jar of Texas.
    ringo has argued that
    quote:

    I am quite well able to deal with such a concept. (A Creator Of All Seen & Unseen) YOU, on the other hand, can't seem to grasp the incongruity of a "creator of all seen and unseen" who DIDN'T create evil.
    Peter Kreeft writes:
    Kreeft summerized his argument this way:
    Q: (Directed at Kreeft) Then God is the creator of evil.
    A: (Kreeft) No, he created the possibility of evil; people actualized that potentiality. The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet there was no potentiality for sin because our freedom includes the possibility of sin within its own meaning. It's a self-contradiction--a meaningless nothing--to have a world where there's real choice while at the same time no possibility of choosing evil. To ask why God didn't create such a world is like asking why God didn't create colorless color or round squares."
    I have elaborated on this argument by saying that God created potential evil and Lucifer chose to actualize it. Once actualized, humans were free to choose "it" rather than Him.

    Edited by Phat, : added sentence


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    Replies to this message:
     Message 855 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 12:33 PM Phat has replied
     Message 856 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 1:40 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 857 of 1086 (897802)
    09-12-2022 2:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 855 by ringo
    09-12-2022 12:33 PM


    Power Tools
    ringo writes:
    Some goober named Peter Kreeft is not helping you.
    He most certainly is! For one thing, he brings out your inner contrarian that got you away from the church. So far you have not insinuated that he is a liar, as you already claimed all apologists were. Both you and he respect the book (more than I do, apparantly ) so you will be challenged through that fact. Finally, he is not a fraud or a fake as Ravi Zacharias proved to be.
    His academic degrees are legitimate.(if you respect that sort of thing)
    The Case For Faith Kreeft interview writes:
    Q: Then why did't God create a world without human freedom?
    Kreeft: Because that would have been a world without humans. Would it have been a place without hate? Yes. A place without suffering? Yes. But it also would have been a world without love, which is the highest value in the universe. That highest good never could have been experienced. Real love--our love of God and our love of each other--must involve a choice. But with the granting of that choice comes the possibility that people would choose instead to hate.
    Q: But look at Genesis, I said. God did create a world where people were free and yet there was no sin.
    Kreeft: Thats precisely what he did. After creation,he declared that the world was 'good'. People were free to choose to love God or turn away from him. However, such a world is necessarily a place where sin is freely possible--and,indeed, that potentiality for sin was actualized not by God, but by people. The blame, ultimately, lies with us. He did his part perfectly; we're the ones who messed up.
    ringo writes:
    Our freedom was given to us by God.
    So was Lucifer's freedom to rebel.
    ringo writes:
    The one who turns a child loose in a workshop full of power tools is evil.
    Depends on what power the tools have.
    ringo writes:
    Some goober named Peter Kreeft doesn't understand the meaning of "all-powerful".
    So kindly explain it to us. How could God be truly all-powerful, eliminate all evil potential and actual, and yet still give us free will? How free would we be?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 855 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 12:33 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 861 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 10:01 PM Phat has replied
     Message 862 by Tangle, posted 09-13-2022 5:41 AM Phat has replied
     Message 863 by Stile, posted 09-13-2022 8:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 858 of 1086 (897803)
    09-12-2022 2:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 856 by nwr
    09-12-2022 1:40 PM


    Re: Is God A Relative?
    nwr writes:
    Apologists are professional liars.
    So are mythicists. Perhaps unknowingly.
    And do you mean ALL of them? Why would they have to lie?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 856 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 1:40 PM nwr has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 859 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 3:24 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 860 by Theodoric, posted 09-12-2022 3:45 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 864 of 1086 (897838)
    09-13-2022 1:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 862 by Tangle
    09-13-2022 5:41 AM


    Re: Power Tools
    Hey Phat, does free will exist in heaven?
    Well, according to accepted dogma, Lucifer actualized evil and fought Michael and the good guys so at some point there must have been free will.
    Of course, I'm no expert on Heaven. How would I know what the place is like? Perhaps they get rid of their garbage via black holes...I've only apologetic dogma with which to provide an answer.
    On the other hand, free will does not exist in Hell. I'm more sure of that. (hypothetically, of course)

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 862 by Tangle, posted 09-13-2022 5:41 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 866 by nwr, posted 09-13-2022 2:14 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 867 by Tangle, posted 09-13-2022 5:44 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 865 of 1086 (897840)
    09-13-2022 1:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 861 by ringo
    09-12-2022 10:01 PM


    Re: Power Tools
    ringo writes:
    The "choice" between heaven and hell is no choice at all.
    Only because you want the right to define/create your own special eternal place.
    Or maybe the cold hard logic of your critical thinking leads to the conclusion that this life is all there is.
    In which case, all that you really have in the way of eternity is to pass along your kindness and wisdom to your offspring, or perhaps someone else. And that assumes that our hope springs eternal. How much of a bummer would it be if we could all peer into the future and see the vision of the end of humanity? Peggy Lee would become a prophet!

    Edited by Phat, .


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 861 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 10:01 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 869 by ringo, posted 09-13-2022 9:55 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 870 of 1086 (897952)
    09-16-2022 3:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 861 by ringo
    09-12-2022 10:01 PM


    Moving This Over Here
    ringo writes:
    I have asked you many, many, many times to show us ONE apologist who is not a liar. Get to it.
    We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
    Bio

    Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people. You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober". It's ok, though....that's how you are.
    Phat writes:
    We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
    All we've seen of him is a few lines that you quoted.
    Phat writes:
    Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people.
    Irrelevant. So is Trump.
    Phat writes:
    You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober".
    ringo writes:
    I call him "some goober" because his ideas are no more important than some guy who pumps gas in Mayberry.
    So you have no respect for education or degrees from accredited college institutions? Only because you yourself never gained any degrees and consider yourself and your logic more highly than you ought! I grant that you are humorous, however. Comic relief is your forte!
    ringo writes:
    If you want to discuss Peter Kreeft, get to it. I answered what you quoted from him. Respond to my answers.
    Phat writes:
    His academic degrees are legitimate.
    ringo writes:
    Irrelevant.
    I forget that in Mayberry, even Gomer and Goober (some goober) are PhDs!
    Phat writes:
    So was Lucifer's freedom to rebel.
    ringo writes:
    Lucifer is a figment of your imagination.
    Some would argue that life itself is a figment of our imagination! When I attempt to defend Christianity, I argue for a personified good, (Jesus) and a personified evil(Lucifer/Satan). This argument concerning figments of imagination is irrelevant.
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    The one who turns a child loose in a workshop full of power tools is evil.
    ​Depends on what power the tools have.
    ringo writes:
    Utter nonsense.
    Humans are not children. Children dont need to become forced to believe in God. They should be given time to conclude for themselves.
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    Some goober named Peter Kreeft doesn't understand the meaning of "all-powerful".
    So kindly explain it to us.
    ringo writes:
    It isn't hard. All-powerful means there is nothing He can not do.
    Given this logic, God *could* have never allowed Satan to exist. Obviously He did and we should conclude that He has a reason.
    ringo writes:
    If He was all-powerful, that's EXACTLY what He could do - ANYTHING.
    In context, ringo does not get to define "ANYTHING".
    ringo writes:
    With your version of God, we are nowhere near being free. The "choice" between heaven and hell is no choice at all.
    Let me guess. ringo wants a third option: Leave me alone (to do good on my own terms) don't fry my friends, and quit giving your Christianity a free pass! Sounds like a rebel in the spirit of a certain fallen angel.
    And lets say that a choice between Heaven and Hell is no choice at all. What do you propose wwe do? Ignore the whole story and reject it hook,line, and sinker?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 861 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 10:01 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 871 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 4:09 PM Phat has replied
     Message 872 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 4:12 PM Phat has replied
     Message 876 by ringo, posted 09-17-2022 12:13 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 873 of 1086 (897979)
    09-17-2022 10:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by PaulK
    10-20-2019 4:26 PM


    Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
    PaulK writes:
    When an apologist disagrees with the Bible, why do you decide that the apologist is right ?
    Several reasons.
    1) Assuming that both the Bible and the apologetics are human reasoning, written, edited, and redacted by humans, and attempting to explain a belief system via story, podcast, or oral argument, I see an apologist as one who passionately believes in the story as interpreted and not just as taught. Is it really relevant for you to defend or attempt to defend the authors of Genesis? In context, Jesus later claimed that Satan was and is the father of lies. If so, why on earth would you push the story that God was the one who lied? Just as the Pharisees claimed that Moses was their "father" or source, or origin, you claim that logic, reason, critical thinking, and studying ancient texts so that YOU can understand the meaning is superior to Jesus (character in ancient texts) saying that His sheep hear His voice...not a bunch of atheists and humanists who critically debunk the book and specifically its two main characters. [/rant] (got carried away a bit)

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by PaulK, posted 10-20-2019 4:26 PM PaulK has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 874 of 1086 (897980)
    09-17-2022 10:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 872 by AZPaul3
    09-16-2022 4:12 PM


    Re: Moving This Over Here
    Oh, AZ! Always taking the AZ way out! If we ever did actually get together, gaze upwards to the milky way, and ponder the wisdom of the universe, we would end up discussing how it got here, mythos and ancient meaning vs critical thinking and rationality, and accusations of making stuff up.
    jar once put it best. GOD either exists or He doesn't. The universe does not know any more than its Creator does. Granted, science and physics will show us even more amazing things that we don't know now.
    Scripture tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
    We are not the source of all wisdom. Nor is the universe. But that's just a belief.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 872 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 4:12 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 877 by ringo, posted 09-17-2022 12:20 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 879 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 12:47 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 875 of 1086 (897981)
    09-17-2022 10:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 871 by AZPaul3
    09-16-2022 4:09 PM


    Re: Moving This Over Here
    You take one snippet of the story and allow it to scare and dissuade you from believing in the story. Must I go over this again? Hell (if it exists) was never created for humans. It is simply an alternative place for fallen angels and the spirits of those who seek them.
    Ask yourself: Would you, a rational man who dismisses the existence of One Holy Spirit as Creaator, ever seek another seemingly wonderful place via a lesser spirit? Would you allow the chemical effects of peyote or a magic mushroom to lead you into a seemingly magical place that the universe seems to beckon you toward? Would you, despite laughing at all gods...be they fallen angels or Creators, feel drawn towards the ground of all meaning?(or so you think) the majik of physics, the answers that are as new as the latest star and yet as old as the universe itself?
    Furthermore, would you urge me to join you on this adventure?
    If so, why be surprised when I invite you to join me on my journey? Are we humans meant to find a common consensus? One answer? Or are there many? As numerous as stars...myths, legends? Perhaps even the universe itself is not monolithic but is one of an infinite number of multiverses!
    I await your comments.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 871 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 4:09 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 878 by ringo, posted 09-17-2022 12:24 PM Phat has replied
     Message 880 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 1:31 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 881 of 1086 (898007)
    09-17-2022 3:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 878 by ringo
    09-17-2022 12:24 PM


    Re: Moving This Over Here
    Who is the liar between us? The scripture plainly says
    Matt 25:41-42 writes:
    Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels,
    NKJV
    jar was the one who "suggested" that the goats were fake Christians. Perhaps the questions should be:
  • Who was cursed?
  • Who cursed them? Jesus or themselves?
    I maintain that hell was never meant for humans, but I will add the qualifier: ALL Humans.
    Perhaps this supports your initial (and ongoing ad nauseum) charge that I never do what Jesus told me to do.
    If in fact, I end up not seeing Jesus in the poor, I will have essentially cursed myself since I not only read it in the book (sans dust) but hear it all the time from my northern neighbor who accuses me of lying whenever I think!
    My argument is that God does not curse us. God cursed satan. We end up in hell (created for the devil and his angels) by following satan and ignoring Jesus.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 878 by ringo, posted 09-17-2022 12:24 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 884 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 2:31 PM Phat has not replied

      
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