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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Phat writes:
I listened to Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty.ringo writes:
I don't know who they are.quote: ringo writes: You don't have to actually think about anything because you already have The Answer If by that you mean that I don't throw away my old answers whenever I come across new ones, you are correct. I do consider the new ones on their own merit and in light of my observations and understanding of humans and human nature...gleaned from my college studies on Psychology. Do you expect me to throw away everything I have believed as you did? I think you are the loopy one in that regard. You deify evidence as if its the default standard for everything, and have somehow gathered enough of it to reject God. I, on the other hand, would need better reasons than a few scholarly lectures from educated people to throw my beliefs away.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
You would need "more" than facts to stop clinging to a lack of facts? Whatever happened to your claim that you consider new ideas on their merit? I believe that humans are in a war of ideologies. I believe that Satan is not simply a plot device representing our own selfish thinking but is an external reality. I have seen enough. Satan was allowed to exist in order to temper us and make those who have an ear stronger. Resisting evil is not an automatic response from every human...many are weak and would as soon roll over and sleep it off or find a way to justify it and form a consensus with it. As for facts, there are some instances in life where they simply are unavailable. The absence of evidence is in and of itself no reason to conclude evidence of absence.
...you don't give the new answers proper consideration because you assume a priori that they're wrong (because you want them to be wrong). Fair enough. You are no different, however. You would be open to having a discussion with God if somehow he could be brought to your house, at your level, and be plopped down on your couch. You likely would grill Him, citing His propensity to "fry your friends and kill innocents, among other things. He is in no way as user-friendly as you hope, so you simply ignore him. Granted I ignore the homeless guy on the way to work always in the same spot begging for change...though I have given it to him on two occasions recently. Why has he any right to everybody's spare change any more than you or i do? You might argue why God has any right to everybody's submission. The only reason you even have such a right is that He allowed it.
You're constantly saying that you refuse to give up your beliefs. Lets put it this way. Say that at one time perhaps ten years ago, you and three friends, enjoying a sober day in the mountains, encountered a UFO. You clearly remember every feeling connected with the experience and even what the round-headed alien said to you. You even felt the touch of their scaley skin brushing against you. Your friends experienced the same event. So along comes evidence which refutes that possibility. Do you simply throw away your memory and your impressions?
Yes. If you have really thought about it, I don't see how you could do anything else. You follow evidence and facts and dismiss the experience as something in your head that could trick you. Keep in mind that I have no reason to accept or reject unicorns. The encyclopedia says they do not exist, so I leave it at that. I would argue that I have a few reasons to accept God while you feel otherwise.You seem to do fine without Him. In fact, you would prefer that the God peddled by organized religion not be real. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
It really is about what you do. I know that. What I was telling ringo is that this same homeless guy parks himself at the same corner every day and collects from people stopped at the light. I give when I feel compelled to give and not out of obligation. Just because he has his hand out is no reason to give every single time I see him. heck, he probably makes more than I do! And what of the day when I cannot work? If I save nothing I will have nothing. I don't see Bernie and the liberals getting elected anytime soon and I am bright enough to know that they cant conjure social money out of thin air. The nation is already far in debt. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Actually I agree with your Mother. I think I met an angel once...no evidence except that he seemed to glow and he had wisdom that one wouldn't expect out of a homeless man. I don't mind giving and helping people. It makes me feel better too. To be honest, however, if I found out someday that God was not real and that all I had been doing was helping my fellow humans, I would feel a bit disappointed.
Its true I would have been doing good. But I really really hope that God exists, is Who we expect Him to be characterwise, and is just waiting to bestow good things on all His children. I will admit there are valid questions from his critics.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
I remember my encounter. I had recently gotten "saved" and was full of love for everybody. The church that I attended had turned a homeless guy away, and I went outside to talk to him. (they were mad that he tracked mud into the sanctuary when he wanted food. he was also inebriated.) So I went out to talk to him. He lived in the railyard next door to the church.(homeless) and I gave him some money and told him why they turned him away.(It was Brent, one of the deacons, who basically had the philosophy that a church would/should feed the needy but not "devils".(drunk people, I assume) After I showed the man respect, he suddenly seemed to glow and began telling me that I would be blessed for helping him.
hen you completely missed the point of what my mother said. She meant that you wouldn't recognize them. The thing is, I never thought anything about him being an angel until after I had talked with him, perhaps several hours later when the possibility just hit me. Mind you, I wouldn't expect anything but its always nice to know that God appreciates our selfless love towards others. Again, if I someday found out that God was not real, I would probably go through a personal crisis. It's not that I don't find value in helping people. Its that I count on being taken care of in the grand scheme of things. I suppose that the homeless feel that way too. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Ringo of Saskatchewan has been chomping at the bit for me to stand and debate/discuss absolute truth vs relative truth in the context of being a believer as opposed to an eternally skeptical critical thinker.
I expanded my argument based on the beliefs of Peter Kreeft, a respected apologist. Here is the basic framework for this argument:
quote:To say that something is absolutely true means that it is independently true for all people, even if they do not know it or recognize it to be true. The opposite of absolute truth is relative truth. To say that something is relatively true means that it can be true for one person and not for another. And in this context, we are discussing the hypothetical of a Creator Of All Seen And Unseen, a phrase coined by jar of Texas. ringo has argued that quote: Peter Kreeft writes: Kreeft summerized his argument this way:Q: (Directed at Kreeft) Then God is the creator of evil. A: (Kreeft) No, he created the possibility of evil; people actualized that potentiality. The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet there was no potentiality for sin because our freedom includes the possibility of sin within its own meaning. It's a self-contradiction--a meaningless nothing--to have a world where there's real choice while at the same time no possibility of choosing evil. To ask why God didn't create such a world is like asking why God didn't create colorless color or round squares." I have elaborated on this argument by saying that God created potential evil and Lucifer chose to actualize it. Once actualized, humans were free to choose "it" rather than Him.Edited by Phat, : added sentence "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
ringo writes: He most certainly is! For one thing, he brings out your inner contrarian that got you away from the church. So far you have not insinuated that he is a liar, as you already claimed all apologists were. Both you and he respect the book (more than I do, apparantly Some goober named Peter Kreeft is not helping you.![]() His academic degrees are legitimate.(if you respect that sort of thing)
The Case For Faith Kreeft interview writes:
Q: Then why did't God create a world without human freedom?Kreeft: Because that would have been a world without humans. Would it have been a place without hate? Yes. A place without suffering? Yes. But it also would have been a world without love, which is the highest value in the universe. That highest good never could have been experienced. Real love--our love of God and our love of each other--must involve a choice. But with the granting of that choice comes the possibility that people would choose instead to hate. Q: But look at Genesis, I said. God did create a world where people were free and yet there was no sin. Kreeft: Thats precisely what he did. After creation,he declared that the world was 'good'. People were free to choose to love God or turn away from him. However, such a world is necessarily a place where sin is freely possible--and,indeed, that potentiality for sin was actualized not by God, but by people. The blame, ultimately, lies with us. He did his part perfectly; we're the ones who messed up. ringo writes: So was Lucifer's freedom to rebel.
Our freedom was given to us by God.ringo writes: The one who turns a child loose in a workshop full of power tools is evil. Depends on what power the tools have.
ringo writes: So kindly explain it to us. How could God be truly all-powerful, eliminate all evil potential and actual, and yet still give us free will? How free would we be? Some goober named Peter Kreeft doesn't understand the meaning of "all-powerful". "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
nwr writes: So are mythicists. Perhaps unknowingly. Apologists are professional liars. And do you mean ALL of them? Why would they have to lie?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Hey Phat, does free will exist in heaven?
Well, according to accepted dogma, Lucifer actualized evil and fought Michael and the good guys so at some point there must have been free will. Of course, I'm no expert on Heaven. How would I know what the place is like? Perhaps they get rid of their garbage via black holes...I've only apologetic dogma with which to provide an answer. On the other hand, free will does not exist in Hell. I'm more sure of that. (hypothetically, of course)"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
ringo writes: Only because you want the right to define/create your own special eternal place. The "choice" between heaven and hell is no choice at all. Or maybe the cold hard logic of your critical thinking leads to the conclusion that this life is all there is.
In which case, all that you really have in the way of eternity is to pass along your kindness and wisdom to your offspring, or perhaps someone else. And that assumes that our hope springs eternal. How much of a bummer would it be if we could all peer into the future and see the vision of the end of humanity? Peggy Lee would become a prophet! ![]() Edited by Phat, . "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
ringo writes: We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
I have asked you many, many, many times to show us ONE apologist who is not a liar. Get to it.Bio
Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people. You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober". It's ok, though....that's how you are. Phat writes:
All we've seen of him is a few lines that you quoted. We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see. Phat writes:
Irrelevant. So is Trump. Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people. Phat writes:
You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober".ringo writes: So you have no respect for education or degrees from accredited college institutions? Only because you yourself never gained any degrees and consider yourself and your logic more highly than you ought! I call him "some goober" because his ideas are no more important than some guy who pumps gas in Mayberry.![]() ringo writes: If you want to discuss Peter Kreeft, get to it. I answered what you quoted from him. Respond to my answers. Phat writes:
His academic degrees are legitimate.ringo writes: I forget that in Mayberry, even Gomer and Goober (some goober) are PhDs! Irrelevant.![]() Phat writes:
So was Lucifer's freedom to rebel.ringo writes: Some would argue that life itself is a figment of our imagination! When I attempt to defend Christianity, I argue for a personified good, (Jesus) and a personified evil(Lucifer/Satan). This argument concerning figments of imagination is irrelevant. Lucifer is a figment of your imagination. Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Depends on what power the tools have. The one who turns a child loose in a workshop full of power tools is evil.ringo writes: Humans are not children. Children dont need to become forced to believe in God. They should be given time to conclude for themselves. Utter nonsense. Phat writes:
ringo writes:
So kindly explain it to us. Some goober named Peter Kreeft doesn't understand the meaning of "all-powerful".ringo writes:
Given this logic, God *could* have never allowed Satan to exist. Obviously He did and we should conclude that He has a reason. It isn't hard. All-powerful means there is nothing He can not do. ringo writes: In context, ringo does not get to define "ANYTHING". If He was all-powerful, that's EXACTLY what He could do - ANYTHING. ringo writes: Let me guess. ringo wants a third option: Leave me alone (to do good on my own terms) don't fry my friends, and quit giving your Christianity a free pass! Sounds like a rebel in the spirit of a certain fallen angel. With your version of God, we are nowhere near being free. The "choice" between heaven and hell is no choice at all. And lets say that a choice between Heaven and Hell is no choice at all. What do you propose wwe do? Ignore the whole story and reject it hook,line, and sinker? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
PaulK writes: Several reasons. When an apologist disagrees with the Bible, why do you decide that the apologist is right ? 1) Assuming that both the Bible and the apologetics are human reasoning, written, edited, and redacted by humans, and attempting to explain a belief system via story, podcast, or oral argument, I see an apologist as one who passionately believes in the story as interpreted and not just as taught. Is it really relevant for you to defend or attempt to defend the authors of Genesis? In context, Jesus later claimed that Satan was and is the father of lies. If so, why on earth would you push the story that God was the one who lied? Just as the Pharisees claimed that Moses was their "father" or source, or origin, you claim that logic, reason, critical thinking, and studying ancient texts so that YOU can understand the meaning is superior to Jesus (character in ancient texts) saying that His sheep hear His voice...not a bunch of atheists and humanists who critically debunk the book and specifically its two main characters. [/rant] ![]() "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Oh, AZ! Always taking the AZ way out!
![]() jar once put it best. GOD either exists or He doesn't. The universe does not know any more than its Creator does. Granted, science and physics will show us even more amazing things that we don't know now. Scripture tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. We are not the source of all wisdom. Nor is the universe. But that's just a belief. ![]() "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
You take one snippet of the story and allow it to scare and dissuade you from believing in the story. Must I go over this again? Hell (if it exists) was never created for humans. It is simply an alternative place for fallen angels and the spirits of those who seek them.
Ask yourself: Would you, a rational man who dismisses the existence of One Holy Spirit as Creaator, ever seek another seemingly wonderful place via a lesser spirit? Would you allow the chemical effects of peyote or a magic mushroom to lead you into a seemingly magical place that the universe seems to beckon you toward? Would you, despite laughing at all gods...be they fallen angels or Creators, feel drawn towards the ground of all meaning?(or so you think) the majik of physics, the answers that are as new as the latest star and yet as old as the universe itself? Furthermore, would you urge me to join you on this adventure? If so, why be surprised when I invite you to join me on my journey? Are we humans meant to find a common consensus? One answer? Or are there many? As numerous as stars...myths, legends? Perhaps even the universe itself is not monolithic but is one of an infinite number of multiverses! I await your comments."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18706 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Who is the liar between us? The scripture plainly says
Matt 25:41-42 writes: jar was the one who "suggested" that the goats were fake Christians. Perhaps the questions should be:
Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels,NKJV I maintain that hell was never meant for humans, but I will add the qualifier: ALL Humans. Perhaps this supports your initial (and ongoing ad nauseum) charge that I never do what Jesus told me to do. If in fact, I end up not seeing Jesus in the poor, I will have essentially cursed myself since I not only read it in the book (sans dust) but hear it all the time from my northern neighbor who accuses me of lying whenever I think! My argument is that God does not curse us. God cursed satan. We end up in hell (created for the devil and his angels) by following satan and ignoring Jesus."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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