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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
PaulK writes:
What are they?
There are certainly scientific elements there, even if you discount the cultural factors.PaulK writes:
Well obviously I contend that it does. We have a sense of morality and deep down we know that the loving thing to do is the right thing to do, It would make sense that if this intelligence does exist then it should be consistent with that. And where does this cosmic intelligence get it���s morality from? Or doesn���t it have one?The question of where does this intelligence get its morality from is the equivalent question of why is there something instead of nothing. I think I’ll ask that question in the next life. I’m going to go to all the lectures. ???? PaulK writes:
I think I do understand the alternatives but I only see the alternatives as a partial explanation Regardless, I think we would want rather better evidence than your refusal to understand the alternatives.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Kin selection for a start, as well as the evolutionary advantages of cooperation in a social species. You might want to consider how worker bees or ants fit into your understanding of evolution, for a start.
quote: If we have to get it from this “cosmic intelligence” it doesn’t obviously make sense that the “cosmic intelligence” would just happen to have a sense of morality at all. If we took your argument seriously shouldn’t we be arguing that it would need to get it from a greater “cosmic intelligence” ?
quote: It’s more like asking if your argument makes sense. And the answer is “no”. So I am going to stick with the answer that does make sense, even if you can’ t bring yourself to understand it.
quote: Looks to me as if you just want to shoehorn your “cosmic intelligence” in there, despite the fact that it doesn’t help at all.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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GDR writes:
Again, that does not exclude an external toot.
What does it mean to say that we can't rule out the undetectable and superfluous claims about the supernatural? Carl Sagan talked about this in his story about the dragon that lived in a garage.
quote: That last bit is the most important. "Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?" Indeed.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: Again, please, "loving sacrificially", what is that? Loving or serving others even when it involve personal cost and without personal benefit.
AZPaul3 writes: And "giving heart assent to loving sacrificially" means to do what? It isn’t so much about doing, as it is about caring for others even beyond at times how we care for ourselves. What we do flows from that.
AZPaul3 writes: And I don't follow the doctrine part. If one agrees with whatever this "heart assent" line means, is that not assenting intellectually to a very specific position? It might or it might not.
That whole sentence seems at odds with the usual pronouncements of the priests who insist faith is to make the deity the center of action and worship. You seem to take that away. Salvation by faith or works? Are you starting your own cult? I have been trying to stay away from my Christian beliefs and argue my point strictly from a theistic POV. I’ll take a short break from that. For centuries Christians churches, (and other faiths as well), have been focused on getting to heaven, or to get in good with whatever deity, when we die.This is consistent with what most religions have been about all along. Usually as we can see in both the OT and the Gospels this was the case in the 1st century world. Then they were looking for a Jewish messiah to come and lead them militarily against their enemies, namely the Romans. They wanted a warrior god. It was about getting a deity to serve us instead of the other way around. Jesus turned this around, (even thought the disciples didn’t get it until later), by coming as a revolutionary but as a proponent of non-violent revolution. The point was about finding a way to benefit the self or a particular group, be it nation or faith. If you look at it objectively the notion of getting to heaven by becoming a Christian is once again trying to manipulate God so that you will benefit in the next life. Within the Christian church there was also the problem that The Bible was being understood in the context of the current time and culture, essentially ignoring the fact that Jesus communed with and taught 1st century Jews of which He was one.The to end to the problems a couple of centuries ago many Christian churches, primarily in North America began to essentially focus on an inerrant Bible instead of on Jesus, essentially making a false idol out of the Bible. I read a lot of theological books by a variety of Christian scholars and it really appears to me that the church is going through a period of reformation.This is a very long answer to a short question but I just want to be reasonably clear that I’m not that far from the mainstream, (particularly within Anglcanism) I’ll try to highlight the points of what I see changing. 1/ The focus of getting to heaven is changing in two ways. It isn’t about heaven so much but about the renewal of this world and God’s dimension, (heaven if you want), and our dimension becoming one. This of course gets away from the view that this world doesn’t matter as God will destroy it anyway and whisk us away somewhere else. As a result caring for all of this creation including the planet itself matters. Now the focus is much more on us serving God as opposed to getting Him to serve us. The next life will take care of itself and we can leave that to God. 2/There is now an emphasis on reading the books of the Bible in the context of their own time and culture and also getting away from the idea that God dictated it. 3/With the discovery of the dead sea scrolls as well as other discoveries of ancient tests and along with the internet, scholars now are better at translating the Bible and understanding it. 4/ The realization that Jesus did talk about the world to come, but much of what has been taken as being about end times was really about His argument against violent revolution. Tis would include all of that stuff about the so-called rapture The bottom line is the Christian church is changing. My views have been changing along the same lines, and I think are roughly consistent with what I’ve talked about in this thread.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Theodoric's Signature writes: "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. That is again the “god of the gaps” argument which is an empty argument. However “science of the gaps” is not an argument either and I see it employed more than I see the “god of the gaps” argument. It too is a case for intellectual laziness. Whatever are you talking about? In particular, what is "science of the gaps" supposed to be and supposed to claim/state?. I did a search on that phrase and traced back through NosyNed's quoting your apparently first use of it in 2013 -- Message 171, 22-May-2013 11:31 AM, in My Beliefs- GDR:
GDR writes: ringo writes:
Ya I know....science of the gaps. Like the creationists, you keep saying "can't" when you should be saying "don't". If we don't understand something yet, it doesn't mean we can't understand it ever. At no point could I find you ever defining what that was supposed to mean, nor what its significance is supposed to be. Frankly, it looks like it was (and still is) a knee-jerk attempt at diversion like Trump's out-of-order "response" to Clinton exposing him in debate as Putin's puppet: "You're the puppet! You're the puppet!" Please define that term and present some kind of support for it or at least some discussion of it:
What is "science of the gaps" supposed to be?
What is the position of "science of the gaps" supposed to be? What are the consequences of "science of the gaps" supposed to be? Contrasting that with the well known consequences of "God of the Gaps" would be useful. BONUS QUESTION: Do you consider ringo's statement, "If we don't understand something yet, it doesn't mean we can't understand it ever.", to be wrong and why?
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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You are inventing your own God.
Actually, this is very common. Most Christians claim they worship the Christian God. But they argue and disagree about the details of that God's character. That's because they have invented their own God, but agreed to say that it is the Christian God. Why not just take life as it comes, and without inventing your own God? Yes, there are aspects of our experience that we cannot completely explain. But we can get along without needing everything to be explained. We can celebrate the gaps in our knowledge, because they provide an opportunity for future discovery and learning.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4444 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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We can celebrate the gaps in our knowledge, because they provide an opportunity for future discovery and learning. And jobs and hobbies for science nerds! Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And you can't know Jesus by rejecting everything the Bible says about Him. Everything? Do you exaggerate much? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
You are mentally ill. Get help. Leave this forum and get help.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR writes: I had looked at a thread on this forum and was troubled by the ideas expressed in the thread about choosing which god to follow. My point was that God as we call him reaches out to everyone,... But those of the qualities of the God you've come to think exists and have chosen to follow. Discussions with you center around your reasons for making the choices you do. You consider them imperatives when they're not. "God as we call him" could be my God who hasn't yet noticed our existence. He has higher goals. We're not the focus of his attention or even awareness.
I used the term "cosmic intelligence" simply so that it would apply to everyone. And maybe it would if you'd give it a decent definition. As of now is just a blank slate upon which anyone can write whatever they like. Having faith in God or Jesus is not about giving intellectual assent to any particular doctrine... Most of the Christian world would disagree with this.
...but about giving heart assent to loving sacrificially. That is where our faith should lie. Selfless love is a good goal but has little to do with religion, God or Jesus. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR writes: The point I’m trying to make in this thread is that altruistic behaviour comes from cosmic intelligence. You're getting deep into the woo-woo. --Percy
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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I'm not understanding:
GDR writes: Stile writes:
My point for all this was to show that "having a moral or loving motivation" can come from a mundane, or "materialistic" (if you prefer) environment.The example again, that I’ve used several times, is the idea of letting someone into traffic ahead of yourself and then they are more likely to do the same thing for someone else. I don't get your point here.I state that my point is to show that having a moral/loving motivation can be mundane and not require God and your thought is to cite an example of letting someone into traffic ahead of yourself (which the next person may also very well do.) Which, to me, is just another mundane (no God required) example. It seems you're proving my point?
GDR writes: Stile writes: My point is that there is no "so called consciousness." Yes, that is your belief. Seems like equivocation to me.If you want to call my conclusion, based on evidence "a belief" the same as your conclusion, based on your desire for it to be true also "a belief." Well... that seems like you're glossing over a very big point. One agrees with all evidence we've learned from humanity learning things.While the other adds in extra entities that have never been verified. Those two things don't seem equal to me - but you may label them as you wish.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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GDR writes: PaulK writes: And where does this cosmic intelligence get it���s morality from? Or doesn���t it have one? Can you describe the details of how you copy/paste? Are you first composing your message in some editing tool and then copy/pasting over? Maybe you're using a font that your browser isn't familiar with? I want to understand how apostrophes get turned into these monstrosities so I can figure out how to prevent it from happening. --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not much. Go ahead and give some examples of things the Bible says about Jesus that you don't reject. You reject the idea that you have to DO anything to be "saved". You reject the idea that you should trust Him instead of your retirement plan. Isn't that pretty much His whole schtick? Everything? Do you exaggerate much?Edited by ringo, : More style. Still a little bit of substance. "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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GDR writes:
And maybe it would if you'd give it a decent definition. I used the term "cosmic intelligence" simply so that it would apply to everyone. One thing I've learned on this forum was a new word, Ignosticism:
quote: As of now is just a blank slate upon which anyone can write whatever they like. Indeed, until we can establish a clear definition for "God", everybody will just use it to mean whatever they choose to mean without ever having to reveal just what they are talking about. In my very first semester in college I took the class in Formal Logic. The instructor was an infamous local politician (ultra-conservative former state senator), but he kept true to his promise to keep politics out of the lectures (except for occasional non-partisan examples) -- I say that to establish his training and practical experience with debating. He taught us that in a debate the first order of business is to clearly establish the definitions of the terminology that will be used in the debate. Without that essential first step, the debate is meaningless as both sides use the same words sans meaning to talk past each other about entirely different things. Of course, debates and attempted discussions with creationists (primarily) and theists in general almost invariably avoid (or even refuse) to present their definitions. Especially creationists rely on the ensuing confusion such that the most terrifying question you can ask them is "What are you saying? What does that mean?" When creationists do that, it is certainly through malfeasance. When theists in general do it, then the fault is more likely to lie in ethnocentrism and just plain not having thought it through. Though when theists do it for the purpose of proselytizing (ie, trying to deceive one into converting), then that edges towards malfeasance.
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