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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 151 of 3694 (897241)
08-31-2022 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Theodoric
08-31-2022 7:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
All that you are basically saying is that claiming Christianity does not give a person or a people the moral high ground. I noted this quote in your Wiki reference:
Wiki writes:
In a speech in the early years of his rule, Hitler declared himself "Not a Catholic, but a German Christian".[17][18][19][20][21] The German Christians were a Protestant group that supported Nazi Ideology.[22] Hitler and the Nazi party also promoted "nondenominational"[23] positive Christianity,[24] a movement that rejected most traditional Christian doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus, as well as Jewish elements such as the Old Testament.[25][26] In one widely quoted remark, he described Jesus as an "Aryan fighter" who struggled against "the power and pretensions of the corrupt Pharisees"[27] and Jewish materialism.[28] Hitler demonstrated a preference for Protestantism[29][page needed] and Lutheranism,[30] stating, "Through me the Evangelical Protestant Church could become the established church, as in England"[31] and that the "great reformer" Martin Luther[32] "has the merit of rising against the Pope and the Catholic Church".[33]
The way I believe, rejecting Christ's divinity is a
RED FLAG. You can't know God without knowing Jesus. And humans cannot imitate Jesus in their own power. Of course, I know you will accuse me of "preaching" and that I need to find and present an evidenced argument. So let's agree on something! How about personal responsibility and national responsibility for starters?
Never mind wiping out others. Let's focus on our own behavior. I know you would agree with this.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2022 7:54 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2022 9:52 PM Phat has replied
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 09-01-2022 12:20 PM Phat has replied
 Message 172 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 1:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 152 of 3694 (897242)
08-31-2022 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Tangle
08-31-2022 5:51 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
Re: What does God want of Us
You didn't read the link did you?
I have read both links you sent me and I don’t know which one you are referring to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2022 5:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2022 4:52 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 153 of 3694 (897243)
08-31-2022 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Theodoric
08-31-2022 7:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Theodoric writes:
Hitler was not an atheist. Quit saddling us with him. He was a Christian.
For more info. If you have a wiki problem, then follow the links to the sources. If you are incapable of that and want to continue to deny facts, I will gladly present them to you, one at a time.
Religious views of Adolf Hitler – Wikipedia
According to that wiki article he claimed adherence to whatever was going to suit him politically and simply used the church until he couldn’t and then persecuted it.
Theodoric writes:
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens
Does that include evidence other than scientific? There is lots of things that have philosophical evidence but for which we can disagree about the meaning of the evidence.
Theodoric writes:
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
I see a lot of things posted on this forum as facts that are actually individual beliefs and may or may not be actually factual.
Theodoric writes:
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
That is again the “god of the gaps” argument which is an empty argument. However “science of the gaps” is not an argument either and I see it employed more than I see the “god of the gaps” argument. It too is a case for intellectual laziness.
Theodoric writes:
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
This is the aspect of the forum I really dislike. I have not lied. I have expressed my opinion which may be right or wrong but my opinions are what I believe to be true.
Please don’t feel compelled to respond to this post.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2022 7:54 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2022 9:55 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 185 by dwise1, posted 09-01-2022 6:45 PM GDR has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 154 of 3694 (897244)
08-31-2022 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
08-31-2022 8:17 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
How about we agree on nothing? Your post is irrelevant. It was presented that Hitler was an atheist and that is objectively not correct. He was a Christian. Everything you posted was word salad and not meaningful or relevant.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 8:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 10:08 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 155 of 3694 (897245)
08-31-2022 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by GDR
08-31-2022 8:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Your whole response is irrelevant to what I posted. I am not going to respond to anything you said because it is a gish gallop, strawman arguments and word salad.
You presented that Hitler was an atheist. This not correct in any way shape or form. If you want to prevent evidence to support that assertion please do. If you want to randomly spout shit please go elsewhere.
ABE.
You do know what signatures are don't you?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 8:45 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 156 of 3694 (897246)
08-31-2022 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Theodoric
08-31-2022 9:52 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Nonsense. Hitler was no atheist. He was a political Christian who did not believe in Jesus's divinity. Like so many other politicians, he used Christianity as a tool and understood little of it. He could care less. He had his own agenda anyway.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2022 9:52 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2022 10:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 157 of 3694 (897247)
08-31-2022 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
08-31-2022 10:08 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Evidence and sources please. He was a Christian as were the people that committed genocide, in the name of their god, against indigenous people of the Americas, Africa and Australia. That is irrefutable.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 10:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 158 of 3694 (897248)
08-31-2022 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
08-31-2022 8:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
So how bad were those so-called reprobates?
We labeled the Japanese with each of those sins during WWII. The enemy always rapes children and eats babies. Your apologists offer nothing more than any other them-hating propagandists.
The reprobate nations had to be destroyed because they were polluting the innocence and purity of the chosen ones.
Phat, please open your eyes to what you write. The “reprobate nations had to be destroyed” so that land, water, power could be aggregated and controlled along with the gold and the women that came with them. Politics hasn't changed that much in the last 3500 years. This ethnic cleansing along with Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah, the bald prophet, Aaron’s sons and all the other death at the hands of your god, the things you and your apologists just pointed to, is testament to his evil by any measure.
God, as shown in a tribe of violently religious zealots rampaging through the Levant, continuing with Christianity in Europe and the Americas and now with Islam around the world, your god is a damned monster. You can keep the fucking excuses and the sick justifications.
Your god is a fake yet he continues to kill people by the boatload just on his influence as acculturated into you. It is evil, Phat. Evil as in needlessly painful, bloody and fatal for all humanity all over the world. You sustain that evil vehicle in this society, Phat.
Stop believing. For the good of humanity, let it die.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 8:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 12:51 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 159 of 3694 (897249)
09-01-2022 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by AZPaul3
08-31-2022 11:02 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZExcuses3 writes:
Your god is a fake yet he continues to kill people by the boatload just on his influence as acculturated into you. It is evil, Phat. Evil as in needlessly painful, bloody and fatal for all humanity all over the world. You sustain that evil vehicle in this society, Phat.
How hypocritical to not believe God exists and yet blame God instead of the humans who perpetrated the actions. I figured out why. If you placed the blame on humans, you would be as guilty as I or any other believer. What you are really attacking is the fact that we believe at all!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2022 11:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 09-01-2022 1:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 162 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2022 7:34 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 160 of 3694 (897250)
09-01-2022 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Phat
09-01-2022 12:51 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
What you are really attacking is the fact that we believe at all!
Well at least some of it came through. Yes, I attack belief, faith. The kind that insists on its right to dictate to society, like ... any religion.
I attack religion, faith, belief for the evil it allows and forces people to do. I do not blame your god since it does not exist. I personify your gods as manipulated influences, GDR's god memes, controlled by the church bureaucracy.
Blame the influence the very idea of gods has had on humanity for allowing zealots and fanatics to lead the church and entice violent followers. The millennia of evils religions have caused in human history has not ended. Your gods, as pernicious persistent memes in people, continue to entice whole societies to war against the heretical them.
Religion is poison to humanity and needs to end.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 12:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 161 of 3694 (897252)
09-01-2022 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by GDR
08-31-2022 8:22 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
You've made a number of unevidenced and/or evidentially wrong assertions, but your your core claim seems to be that altruism can't be explained by the natural forces that have shaped all life - including all human life - here.
You say - without evidence - that altruistic behaviour is a supernatural, ie god given, human trait. And by god, you mean the Christian god of your particular born-into belief.
quote:
Altruism is the principle and moral practice of concern for happiness of other human beings or other animals, resulting in a quality of life both material and spiritual. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures and a core aspect of various religious and secular worldviews. However, the object(s) of concern vary among cultures and religions. In an extreme case, altruism may become a synonym of selflessness, which is the opposite of selfishness.
Altruism - Wikipedia
In making this claim, you dismiss the obvious problem that altruistic behaviour is caused by brain activity that can be observed. And like all our other behaviours, this is governed by genetics, environment and culture. There is absolutely no reason to believe that altruism is the result of a different process to all other biological processes.
quote:
Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.[19] One brain region, the subgenual anterior cingulate cortex/basal forebrain, contributes to learning altruistic behavior, especially in those with trait empathy.[20] The same study has shown a connection between giving to charity and the promotion of social bonding.[21]
In fact, in an experiment published in March 2007 at the University of Southern California neuroscientist Antonio R. Damasio and his colleagues showed that subjects with damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex lack the ability to empathically feel their way to moral answers, and that when confronted with moral dilemmas, these brain-damaged patients coldly came up with "end-justifies-the-means" answers, leading Damasio to conclude that the point was not that they reached immoral conclusions, but that when they were confronted by a difficult issue – in this case as whether to shoot down a passenger plane hijacked by terrorists before it hits a major city – these patients appear to reach decisions without the anguish that afflicts those with normally functioning brains.
Altruistic behaviour is seen in many animals particularly our close evolutionary relatives so, there's no doubt that it's an evolved trait like all others.
The wiki article shows how altruism has been adopted by many religions, it is not simply a Christian claim and of course it's not even a religious claim. Atheists are not devoid of altruism. Altruism is a behaviour spectrum found - with exceptions and varying strengths - in all humans (and other animals.) universally. It's an emotion like all others. (It's also interesting to note that you make no claim over the negative motions - anger, hate, fear etc.)
So the only religious argument left is that some supernatural being way back at the beginning of creation forced evolution along a path that would develop animal brains to incorporate emotions such as empathy and altruism. (And hate, greed, anger, prejudice, acquisitiveness, selfishness, competitiveness, contempt, shame etc)
Rationalists would simply apply Occam's Razor and cut the god intervention out of the equation as unnecessary. All other emotions have evolved naturally, why is a god needed?
They would also point to the total lack of evidence for the existence of any god(s).

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 8:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 2:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 162 of 3694 (897253)
09-01-2022 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Phat
09-01-2022 12:51 AM


Phat still does not understand basics of argument
You are so caught up in your delusions, you are incapable of grasping the basics of a very simple argument. The willfully ignorant should keep their thoughts to themselves, rather than proudly proclaim that ignorance.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 12:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 7:48 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 3694 (897254)
09-01-2022 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Theodoric
09-01-2022 7:34 AM


Re: Phat still does not understand basics of argument
This is a Faith topic. I shall proudly and loudly proclaim my faith...what *you* label as delusions precisely because it is armchair quarterbacks such as you who insist that I lay it out as if it is scientific proof. It won't happen. Go back to your recliner.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2022 7:34 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2022 9:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 09-01-2022 12:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 164 of 3694 (897255)
09-01-2022 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
09-01-2022 7:48 AM


Re: Phat still does not understand basics of argument
Talk about missing the point. That was not what I meant. You don't even understand the arguments people are making. How can you even discuss something when you don't even understand what people are saying? I am not going to hold your hand and spoon feed you what people are saying, but I will laugh as you get more and more ridiculous and become more of a caricature of yourself.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 7:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 165 of 3694 (897256)
09-01-2022 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
08-31-2022 8:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Where are you quoting from? Instead of lengthy copy/pastes you might want to provide a link.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 8:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
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