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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 121 of 3694 (897185)
08-30-2022 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
08-30-2022 3:59 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that God helps those who ask. He does not simply help everybody.
That doesn't seem very loving.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 3:59 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 122 of 3694 (897193)
08-30-2022 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
08-30-2022 3:59 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
So just the whiney people?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 3:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 123 of 3694 (897199)
08-31-2022 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
08-30-2022 3:59 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that God helps those who ask. He does not simply help everybody.
Sorry Phat but I have to disagree. The Gospels are clear that Jesus was for all nations. God's spirit touched everyone and everyone is free to reject it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 3:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 3694 (897200)
08-31-2022 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by AZPaul3
08-30-2022 4:01 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZQuestions3 writes:
What happened to his infinite love for his creation?
The apologists explain it this way:
Is the God of the Old Testament Cruel?
They list several reasons why not.
  • First, God waited 400 years before judging these nations, which reminds us that He is very long-suffering.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 120 by AZPaul3, posted 08-30-2022 4:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 126 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2022 3:01 AM Phat has replied
     Message 127 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2022 8:02 AM Phat has not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 125 of 3694 (897201)
    08-31-2022 2:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 118 by Stile
    08-30-2022 3:32 PM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    Stile writes:
    I'm not really touching on that here. I'm sticking to the point of "why does God want us to be robots and follow orders instead of giving us free will to decide ourselves?" I don't see a satisfactory answer to that.

    Does God give us Free Will to make our own decisions?
    Or does God write memes on our hearts to nudge us in certain directions?
    Those seem like conflicting ideas, and I don't see how they are resolved within a single entity who created us.

    I can see why a God might create us and give us Free Will and see what we decide... sounds like an interesting adventure!
    I can't see why an all-powerful God would write anything on our hearts to nudge us in certain directions... this seems to remove a certain level of Free Will, or imply that God didn't setup the universe itself, and needs to "correct" or "help" something that He cannot control... as if the world and humans were created by someone else, and God sees us and is all... "oh my... these humans need help! I'll write something on their hearts to guide them in the right direction!"
    If God did create everything... why the need to give us memes/nudges? Why not create the world to give us memes/nudges? Why give us Free Will and then decide to override a portion of it?
    If it is ok I think that this section pretty much covers your whole post. When we raise our kids hopefully we do it with unconditional love. We want to be a good example and we want to give them guidance. However in all of that they aren't robots and do have free will.
    We are what we are through an evolutionary process which is about the survival of the fittest. Certainly co-operation can exist within the process and should be expected as there can be strength in numbers. However it is still about looking out for number one. We know though that we can rise above that and there has to be a reason for that. I don't see materialistic reasons for it.
    I think we would both agree that there is a right and wrong. Why would there be a right and wrong in a totally materialistic world?
    I contend that it would be a very unhappy world if there was no God meme. We have seen nations governed by despots whose lust for power is quite content to see the lives of millions lost to increase their power and others are simply tools to be used to increase their power. Maybe that would be survival of the fittest in action. In my view they have completely rejected the God meme, the still small voice of God, and they had the free will to do that. You have chosen a path of loving the other but that was freely chosen by you.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by Stile, posted 08-30-2022 3:32 PM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 128 by nwr, posted 08-31-2022 9:02 AM GDR has replied
     Message 129 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2022 10:00 AM GDR has replied
     Message 133 by Stile, posted 08-31-2022 12:02 PM GDR has replied
     Message 134 by PaulK, posted 08-31-2022 12:31 PM GDR has replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8513
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 5.3


    (4)
    Message 126 of 3694 (897203)
    08-31-2022 3:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
    08-31-2022 2:24 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    First, God waited 400 years before judging these nations, which reminds us that He is very long-suffering.
    Long suffering from what? Ego? Megalomania? His toys don't want to play nice with him? What the hell kind of his 400 year suffering justifies an eternity in a lake of fire?
    That makes him a god damned monster, Phat.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 124 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 2:24 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 149 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 8:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9076
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    (2)
    Message 127 of 3694 (897206)
    08-31-2022 8:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
    08-31-2022 2:24 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    But he knew this was going to happen. Omniscient and all that. Evil bastard.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 124 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 2:24 AM Phat has not replied

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6408
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 5.1


    Message 128 of 3694 (897209)
    08-31-2022 9:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 125 by GDR
    08-31-2022 2:25 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    I think we would both agree that there is a right and wrong. Why would there be a right and wrong in a totally materialistic world?
    Right and wrong are human concepts. They are invented by humans.
    I'm not sure what that has to do with "totally materialistic world". But then I'm not a materialist so maybe I don't understand "totally materialistic world".

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 125 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 2:25 AM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 130 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 11:06 AM nwr has replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9489
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.9


    (1)
    Message 129 of 3694 (897210)
    08-31-2022 10:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 125 by GDR
    08-31-2022 2:25 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    GDR writes:
    When we raise our kids hopefully we do it with unconditional love. We want to be a good example and we want to give them guidance.
    This isn't a universal truth either is it? You have to account for the bad stuff as well as the lovely stuff.
    We are what we are through an evolutionary process which is about the survival of the fittest. Certainly co-operation can exist within the process and should be expected as there can be strength in numbers. However it is still about looking out for number one. We know though that we can rise above that and there has to be a reason for that. I don't see materialistic reasons for it.
    This has been explained to you many times. There are perfectly good evolutionary and cultural explanations for these behaviours.
    I think we would both agree that there is a right and wrong. Why would there be a right and wrong in a totally materialistic world?
    You don't mean materialistic do you? You just mean godless. And again, it's been explained to you. You just prefer to believe that some supernatural being is whispering in people's ears. That's rather mad.
    I contend that it would be a very unhappy world if there was no God meme.
    Most of Scandanavia is godless. They're the happiest people on the planet. Why do you need to make this stuff up?
    We have seen nations governed by despots whose lust for power is quite content to see the lives of millions lost to increase their power and others are simply tools to be used to increase their power. Maybe that would be survival of the fittest in action. In my view they have completely rejected the God meme, the still small voice of God, and they had the free will to do that. You have chosen a path of loving the other but that was freely chosen by you.
    It seems that your god makes psychopaths as well as nice cuddly people. Why?

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 125 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 2:25 AM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 1:16 PM Tangle has replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 130 of 3694 (897211)
    08-31-2022 11:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 128 by nwr
    08-31-2022 9:02 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    nwr writes:
    Right and wrong are human concepts. They are invented by humans.
    And you know that how? It is your belief just as I have mine.
    nwr writes:
    I'm not sure what that has to do with "totally materialistic world". But then I'm not a materialist so maybe I don't understand "totally materialistic world".
    PHILOSOPHY
    a person who supports the theory that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.
    I guess sticking totally in there is kinda redundant.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by nwr, posted 08-31-2022 9:02 AM nwr has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 131 by nwr, posted 08-31-2022 11:18 AM GDR has replied

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6408
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 5.1


    Message 131 of 3694 (897212)
    08-31-2022 11:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 130 by GDR
    08-31-2022 11:06 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    And you know that how?
    We see people making it up.
    a person who supports the theory that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.
    Does existence exist?

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 11:06 AM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 1:25 PM nwr has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 132 of 3694 (897214)
    08-31-2022 11:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
    08-30-2022 3:59 PM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    Phat writes:
    I tend to believe that God helps those who ask.
    What about people who ask for spare change?

    "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
    What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
    It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
    Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
    -- Leningrad Cowboys

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 3:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 133 of 3694 (897216)
    08-31-2022 12:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 125 by GDR
    08-31-2022 2:25 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    GDR writes:
    When we raise our kids hopefully we do it with unconditional love. We want to be a good example and we want to give them guidance. However in all of that they aren't robots and do have free will.
    This is the problem.
    The analogy you've provided clarifies my issue: Loving parents caring for their children.
    This provides an explanation on why God would write Love onto our hearts.
    But it brings up a bunch of other unanswerable questions:
    -why does God's parenting involve caring for us enough to write on our hearts that Stile should help an old lady cross the street, but God's parenting does not involve caring enough to write on Timmy's parents' hearts that they shouldn't let their child die from malnutrition?
    God's parenting-care just doesn't compare with a loving parent's care.
    Therefore - either God's "care" isn't Loving... or God doesn't have the power to feed Timmy... or God doesn't write things on our hearts at all.
    You seem to be describing a God that interferes "a certain amount."
    This calls into question "why that amount?"
    This is why I find the answer unsatisfactory. It seems like a "just-so" story to answer a question that didn't think of the ramifications of it's own answer.
    Certainly co-operation can exist within the process and should be expected as there can be strength in numbers. However it is still about looking out for number one.
    No - it's not about looking out for number 1.
    Evolution isn't even about surviving. It's just a thing that happens. The fit end up surviving. The unfit end up dying. That's it. Evolution doesn't have a purpose or a goal of surviving... it's just a thing that happens, or it doesn't. Like rocks will either sit on land, or on water. There's no goal of rocks to be underwater, or on dry land... some just end up here and others there. Just a thing that happens.
    Therefore - evolution isn't about "looking out for number 1." It's just a thing that happens to live species as they reproduce. Some live species co-operate and end up surviving better. This can be a goal for that species... but it's not a goal for evolution. Or, maybe, again... it might just be "a thing that happens" within that species.
    Individuals within a surviving, co-operating species may have their own goals. Some might want the species to survive. Some might want to look out for number one. Some might not care at all and have a completely different goal - like painting the perfect picture.
    We know though that we can rise above that and there has to be a reason for that.
    To me, there's nothing to "rise above" because there isn't anything there in the first place.
    I'm an individual, not only can I create my own personal purpose... but I have to create my own personal purpose because no one else is giving me a purpose. Well, I'm sure some people who want to take advantage of me try to give me purpose all the time - but I tend to ignore them, they don't seem helpful.
    I don't see materialistic reasons for it.
    The reason I choose to follow Love is because I like that option better than the alternative.
    1. I interact with people.
    2. My interactions can leave people happy or sad.
    3. I use my intelligence to decide that between these options - I would rather leave people happy instead of sad.
    This basis leads to: follow Love.
    No God required. Completely mundane. Completely "materialistic" (if you want to call it that.)
    I think we would both agree that there is a right and wrong.
    Yes - and I can define it:
    Right: those actions that result with the-people-being-affected-by-the-action giving their approval of the action.
    Wrong: those actions that result with the-people-being-affected-by-the-action giving their disapproval of the action.
    Can you define it?
    Why would there be a right and wrong in a totally materialistic world?
    Because people exist in a totally materialistic world.
    Once people exist... interactions between those people may exist.
    Once interactions between people exist... those interactions can be positive or negative (judged by the people being affected.)
    Ta-daa... Right and Wrong in a totally materialistic world.
    I contend that it would be a very unhappy world if there was no God meme.
    I contend that things would be exactly as they are.
    We have seen nations governed by despots whose lust for power is quite content to see the lives of millions lost to increase their power and others are simply tools to be used to increase their power.
    Yeah - my answer is: Not all people care about others who are affected by their decisions.
    Maybe that would be survival of the fittest in action.
    Maybe - but this would be entirely unrelated to good and bad. The "fit" are those who survive. The only way to know is to find out who survives. And we can't see the future.
    But I just call this assholes being assholes.
    In my view they have completely rejected the God meme, the still small voice of God, and they had the free will to do that.
    That's right. But now you have this "God meme" in the picture... something God has forcefully placed into our minds/hearts without our consent (that's just a long way to say "interacting" with this world.) So now you have a problem: if God interacts with this world... why only a little bit? Why not more? Why not less? Why interact at all?
    I don't have any of those questions in my view of Right and Wrong.
    -some people care about others affected by their decisions (Right.)
    -other people do not care about others affected by their decisions (Wrong.)
    So we end up with people doing good things and bad things at various times with varying frequencies (whenever they individually decide to care about those affected by their actions.)
    No hanging questions. Everything's answered.
    You have chosen a path of loving the other but that was freely chosen by you.
    In your view, I still don't see how you can say this.
    God very well may be a caring parent and want to help us out by writing it on our hearts... but this is still writing it on our hearts which is still affecting our decision and it's not "really free," is it? There's an advertisement hanging around clearly pushing us in a certain direction. It would only be "freely chosen" if that advertisement wasn't there.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 125 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 2:25 AM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 139 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 3:19 PM Stile has replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 134 of 3694 (897219)
    08-31-2022 12:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 125 by GDR
    08-31-2022 2:25 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    quote:
    We are what we are through an evolutionary process which is about the survival of the fittest. Certainly co-operation can exist within the process and should be expected as there can be strength in numbers. However it is still about looking out for number one. We know though that we can rise above that and there has to be a reason for that. I don't see materialistic reasons for it.
    It really isn’t. You’ve just reminded me of your misrepresentation of Dawkins’ The Selfish Gene - trying to pass it off as something like Original Sin. But understanding that idea would be a good starting point. And then you have culture on top of that.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 125 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 2:25 AM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 142 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 4:16 PM PaulK has replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 135 of 3694 (897220)
    08-31-2022 1:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Tangle
    08-31-2022 10:00 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    Tangle writes:
    his isn't a universal truth either is it? You have to account for the bad stuff as well as the lovely stuff.
    I said hopefully parents raise their kids with unconditional love, acknowledging that it wasn’t done universally.
    Tangle writes:
    This has been explained to you many times. There are perfectly good evolutionary and cultural explanations for these behaviours.
    Agreed you just keep making the same arguments. So yes, love is an aspect of cultural explanations, but it is a faith issue as to why the idea of sacrificial love exists at all. What is the science behind sacrificial love in the evolutionary process? Darwin’s finches got longer beaks to adapt to their environment, Evolution is a physical process.
    Tangle writes:
    You don't mean materialistic do you? You just mean godless. And again, it's been explained to you. You just prefer to believe that some supernatural being is whispering in people's ears. That's rather mad.
    I do mean materialistic. See the definition in my post to nwr. Also, I don’t mean godless. I don’t see atheists as being godless. Even Hitler loved his dog from what I’ve read.
    Tangle writes:
    Most of Scandanavia is godless. They're the happiest people on the planet. Why do you need to make this stuff up?
    2/3 of Swedes are Christian
    Sweden population (2022) live — Countrymeters
    84.7% of Norway is Christian
    Norway population (2022) live — Countrymeters
    Why do you need to make this stuff up?
    Tangle writes:
    It seems that your god makes psychopaths as well as nice cuddly people. Why?
    Because He gave us free will. He didn’t make us to be robotic.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2022 10:00 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 138 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2022 2:06 PM GDR has replied
     Message 148 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2022 7:54 PM GDR has replied

      
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