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Author | Topic: Brexit - Should they stay or should they go? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I may be asking a silly question, but why wouldn't Northern Ireland and Scotland form their own UK (capital in either Belfast or Edinburgh). Northern Ireland has to go this way because of the risks associated with a hard border with Ireland just for their own peace and tranquility. Scotland's been unhappy with the UK and nearly voted to withdraw a few years ago, and I'm guessing that when Scotland says they're unhappy with the UK that they really mean England and Wales, not Northern Ireland.
They'd need to work out trade/immigration/military deals with Wales and England, but wouldn't that be preferable to walking down the no-deal Brexit path? And they'd have open borders with the rest of the EU, and it would just be England and Wales walled off in their nice comfortable little realm of passport carrying citizens. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Well, here's another silly idea, then. Scotland and Northern Ireland both leave the UK. Scotland's leaving makes sense because they almost achieved it a few years ago, and now it makes even more sense. Am I right to assume that as an independent nation newly outside the UK that they'll have to apply for EU membership? If so they might want to time their exit from the UK to coincide with their admittance to the EU.
Northern Ireland's leaving will be a close thing, but at least some Unionists will see the danger of a hard border with Ireland as greater than parting with the UK, and Sinn Fein and the Social Democrat and Labour Party will tend toward parting, also. Again depending upon the details of entry to the EU, Northern Ireland may want to delay exit from the UK until they're admitted to the EU. Northern Ireland will do a long dance with Ireland that possibly results in eventual reunification, though if reunifying with Ireland automatically makes them an EU member then that could accelerate the process. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I'm probably walking out on a pretty thin branch commenting on British politics, but aren't requests like this to the monarch just a formality, always rubber stamped?
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I'm not sure what all the language means, some of the terminology is unfamiliar, but what we're reading over here is that parliament will vote Wednesday on whether to block the government (apparently a separate entity from parliament under the direction of Boris Johnson) from leaving the EU with no deal on 10/31.
And if I'm getting the correct sense of things, if that vote succeeds then Boris Johnson will try to schedule a general election that he hopes would give him the mandate he needs but that might also put him out of power. Apparently the opposition fears that a general election could give Johnson that mandate and so will oppose a general election, which requires the approval of 2/3 of parliament. This would leave a weakened and more vulnerable minority Johnson government in charge. Apparently that's preferable to the risk that a general election that might strengthen Johnson's hand. Complicating matters is that Johnson is apparently engaging in a blatant level of lying of which Trump would be proud, insisting that there was progress in the EU talks (as a Trump acolyte maybe Johnson should next claim he's receiving calls from EU officials wishing to make a deal). It is true that the EU is making plans that would mitigate the pain of a no-deal Brexit, which they consider a danger prudent to plan for, but this has nothing to do with UK/EU talks. My attempts at interpreting British government have a tendency to be off the mark, corrections welcome. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I've probably said this before, but why can't Britain reverse Brexit? Why is the result of this populist resolution considered cast in stone? Every few years, as in all countries, Britain reverses itself and puts the opposite party in charge. Why can't Britain reverse itself on Brexit?
I hear that the political temperature on Brexit is a close thing, that there is no guarantee that voting on it again wouldn't again be a close affair, but that makes no sense. The British people couldn't possibly be so dense. Brexit passed because its negative aspects were not understood at the time. Now they are. How could Brexit ever pass again? I'm sure i've again revealed my woeful ignorance of British politics, but that's the way I feel. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Tangle writes: Why is the result of this populist resolution considered cast in stone? It isn't, but it would need another vote. Oh, sure, I understand that.
Every few years, as in all countries, Britain reverses itself and puts the opposite party in charge. Why can't Britain reverse itself on Brexit? Why doesn't the USA change the 2nd amendment? I didn't mean to ask why doesn't Britain reverse itself on Brexit, but why *can't* it. The reason for that phrasing is because the way I often hear it described over here is that there can't be another vote on Brexit because it would be undemocratic. The British people have already democratically expressed their will, and to ask them the same question again just because implementation poses difficult issues is undemocratic. The flip side of it, of course, is that Britain was sold a bill of goods on Brexit. It has few of the benefits promised, and it includes many costs that were left unmentioned.
I'm sure i've again revealed my woeful ignorance of British politics, but that's the way I feel. No, you've just revealed your ignorance of the majority of people. Just like our politicians did. Well one of them, Cameron. But I think there's a basic economic psychology issue being ignored. People in general respond more viscerally to fears than to benefits. When on an objective level the costs and benefits balance out, people will always respond more strongly to the costs. In other words, fear mongering works. Brexit has to be fought with equivalent fear mongering. For example, one doesn't argue that Britain's position in the EU makes it the financial center, and so Britain should stay. One instead argues that a good portion of Britain's financial power would move to the continent, and so Britain shouldn't leave. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
DrJones* writes: They can reverse Brexit. The referendum was non-binding, the government has no legal obligation to go through with it. The EU court has said that the UK can stop the process anytime they want without needing the agreement of the other members. It is legally possible to for them to just say "oops changed our minds, we're staying". It's politics that are keeping this clusterfuck going. This is new information for me. I didn't know the referendum was non-binding. The downside risks and difficulties of Brexit are now so obvious and apparent that it seems a no-brainer to bring it to a halt. It is too bad that the politics makes this impossible. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
From two and a half years ago:
Tangle writes: Boris is a clown but he's no idiot - he's a very clever guy. He's no Trump, I have a feeling he'll surprise us. Well we have to hope. I accidentally clicked on a link that brought this post into view. What are the odds of randomly coming across something so relevant? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Tangle writes: If the clown hadn't turned out to also be a pathological liar maybe things would have worked out better... Wasn't he also corrupt, a hypocrite, and a crook? I don't know the perspective from over there, but I think that's the way it looks from over here. And maybe it could be argued that it's kind of expected that one lie about one's corruption, hypocrisy and thievery. Anyway, I was very surprised to find myself staring at that old post about Johnson that while hopeful still seemed to have him pegged. Didn't he do some amazing work early on in getting Brexit though? That aside, one thing you can say about old Boris is that he sure knew how to have a good time! --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Tanyperyx writes: American flags at half mast is a bit too much for me. I can understand feeling this way, and many British probably feel the same way, but the figurative head of our closest ally in the entire world has died, so I'm okay with it. --Percy
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