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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 3694 (897133)
08-29-2022 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Theodoric
08-29-2022 3:59 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Are you implying that in order to be universal an idea has to be unanimously accepted?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 3:59 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 4:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 92 of 3694 (897135)
08-29-2022 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
08-29-2022 4:02 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
That would be the definition of universal.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 4:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 93 of 3694 (897137)
08-29-2022 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
08-29-2022 3:23 PM


Re: Making It All Up
What's wrong with me "making up" the God I want while remaining respectful of reality?
I don't have a problem with that. But there is a problem if you write it down and expect others to follow the God that you want when that might not be the God that they want.
If you make up the God that you want, then best to keep it to yourself.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 3:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 94 of 3694 (897139)
08-29-2022 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Stile
08-29-2022 3:35 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Stile writes:
I'm not sure what "responding to His still small voice" means.
Does God plant seeds in all of us? Does He affect our conscience? Do I have thoughts/feelings/nudges here and there that would not exist if God did not exist?
Are we free to make our own decisions or does God imply to us what is right and what is wrong?
That is... if "I'm" not deciding what is right and wrong, and God is merely "adjusting my thoughts to inform me what is right and wrong" then... I'm not really choosing to do good things (which I think is important.) Your word has more meaning here... I would be responding and doing good things... like a good little robot...
I look at it this way. It's been a long time since I read it but I enjoyed Dawkis' book "The Selfish Gene" In it he coined the word "meme".
We both can see examples of cultural memes. If a driver let's another driver into traffic it plants a meme and increases the possibility that the 2nd driver will do the same thing for someone else. However he also might not. He/she has the freedom to do that.
I see the still small voice of God being a God meme. It's a seed planted universally in our hearts/minds to do the loving thing. However we are certainly not robots and we are free to completely ignore it, and it seems that more often than not we do.
Stile writes:
Which raises the question... if God is doing such a thing... what's the point?
-if God put us here to see if we follow Love or not... shouldn't He not nudge us at all?
-if God wants us to follow Love, and nudges us in that direction... why not nudge harder? If "a little bit" of free-will is okay to override so that I'm nudged to help an old lady cross the street... why isn't it okay to override free-will more, in certain instances, so that little Timmy doesn't die of malnutrition at the age of 7?
Sure the loving thing to do isn't always clear and we also have intelligence and we do the best we can with it.
Christianity does provide an answer as to the point however, that is meaningless to you and most others here. Maybe the secular point is that it does establish a more contented harmonious world and that is point enough.
Stile writes:
Following Love is really what matters.
It's what we do, and what we fail at, and what we try to do better next time with.

There is no "grace vs works" (intentions vs doing.) You need both, and must use both to follow Love.
And again...can I get an Amen.
Stile writes:
I agree with the sentiment. I would layer it like this:

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing loving things in order to ultimately benefit oneself.
I think it's better to follow Love simply because you think it's "the right thing to do" - regardless of personal benefit. But I don't think it matters too much.

Why compare why loving things are done, as long as loving things are getting done? The moment one's quest for "personal benefits" gets in the way of doing loving things... that's when concern should begin. But, maybe, personal benefit is the best path to doing the most loving things? If so... shouldn't we all act for personal benefit, then - to do the most loving things?

I usually tend to find myself somewhere in the middle... trying to do good things just because I want to do good things, but also sometimes doing good things because I see a benefit for myself... sometimes both at the same time.
Sometimes I'll do something good just because it's good... but someone else will see that I also obtained a benefit and think I did it for the benefit! Those rogues!!
That is really well put so thank you!
Stile writes:
I'm not as confident in not worrying about it. I have a fear that there could be someone watching, possibly not even a "good" someone.. and I'm screwing myself over. But - it's not a big fear. Just one of those every-now-and-then pangs that quickly gets overcome by a sense of following Love to do what I can, when I can, and feeling confident in my own justifications for my actions.

The thing is, even if that fear became reality, if it was known for sure that God existed and He was watching... I'd like to think that I wouldn't care, and still do whatever I thought was best (after taking in whatever advice we could get from this positively-existing God, anyway.) Even if it meant eternal torture (we can assume the god isn't "God" at this point.) I don't know if I'd be able to do that... eternal torture is a pretty good threat. I've done worse for less! That would be an interesting (but very scary) world, for sure.
Man I wish I had said that and that I had the ability to write as well as that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 3:35 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Stile, posted 08-30-2022 11:48 AM GDR has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 95 of 3694 (897140)
08-29-2022 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
08-29-2022 3:46 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Tangle writes:
You and I might agree on stuff like honour and love giving a meaning. Others would put family before everything. And some others like. Trump, Putin etc think that meaning comes in other forms - - power, status, wealth, legacy.
Yeah - that one's a conundrum.
Who's to say that chasing power isn't "better" than chasing love?
Why can I say there is "honour" in chasing love... but none in chasing power?
Can I only say that because you and I agree on it as well?
What's my evidence? Is there any?
I can give evidence on how chasing love helps and doesn't hurt others... while chasing power will hurt others (sometimes... more often then trying to avoid it, anyway.)
It all comes down to identifying good vs bad.
If good = 'actions that result in people being glad you did that action to them'
If bad = 'actions that result in people being sad you did that action to them'
...then this provides an evidence basis for power = sometimes bad and love = good.
But, that only holds water if you agree to it. Which, admittedly, isn't very difficult and goes along with our sense of "what good is."
But it's still... just an imaginary agreement.
Which is required for honour... but useless for persuasiveness.
Sadly there really isn't clear agreement on this between humanity. If there was, the world would not be the way it is.
Yup.
Even with the provided above framework... if someone doesn't agree, or doesn't care... well, then... you know what we got right here:
quote:
What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
-Captain Strother Martin, Cool Hand Luke
And, ironically, this is the same boat as if God existed. It doesn't matter if following Love comes from God or ourselves in this context. Those who don't agree; don't agree all the same. (Clearly!) Regardless of the threat of eternal punishment from a non-evidenced God, or a threat-less claim of fully evidenced good.
Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other... a whole bucket of uselessness.
The Golden Rule that GDR is so fond of is sadly not universal.
Agreed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2022 3:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 96 of 3694 (897141)
08-29-2022 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Theodoric
08-29-2022 3:59 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Theodoric writes:
Then it isn't universal is it.
Not at all. A politician might go into a room and make a specific point. Everyone universally hears it that doesn't mean that everyone has to universally accept it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 3:59 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 4:47 PM GDR has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 97 of 3694 (897142)
08-29-2022 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by GDR
08-29-2022 4:25 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
But that is a much different situation than the golden rule isn't it.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 4:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 5:26 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 98 of 3694 (897143)
08-29-2022 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
08-29-2022 3:23 PM


Re: Making It All Up
Phat writes:
Do you really think that the authors of scripture "made up" a God that they didn't want?
The authors of scripture made up the God they thought would empower them most.
What's wrong with me "making up" the God I want...
Nothing, and no one suggested there was. Just don't pretend that the God you've made up is the God of the Bible.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 3:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 6:45 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 99 of 3694 (897144)
08-29-2022 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Theodoric
08-29-2022 4:47 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Theodoric writes:
Then it isn't universal is it.
I
I don't get your point.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 4:47 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2022 8:58 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 101 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 10:15 PM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 100 of 3694 (897154)
08-29-2022 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by GDR
08-29-2022 5:26 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
I think you each have different nuances in your definitions of universal.
Universal as in most know about it (like red/green traffic lights) vs universal as in connected to the vibes of the universe?
Clarifications of your meanings might help.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 5:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 101 of 3694 (897156)
08-29-2022 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by GDR
08-29-2022 5:26 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Now you need to look up equivocation. If you don't understand then, come back and I will explain it to you.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 5:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by GDR, posted 08-30-2022 2:06 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 102 of 3694 (897157)
08-29-2022 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Stile
08-29-2022 3:35 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Stile writes:
I'm not as confident in not worrying about it. I have a fear that there could be someone watching, possibly not even a "good" someone.. and I'm screwing myself over. But - it's not a big fear. Just one of those every-now-and-then pangs that quickly gets overcome by a sense of following Love to do what I can, when I can, and feeling confident in my own justifications for my actions.
The thing is, even if that fear became reality, if it was known for sure that God existed and He was watching... I'd like to think that I wouldn't care, and still do whatever I thought was best (after taking in whatever advice we could get from this positively-existing God, anyway.) Even if it meant eternal torture (we can assume the god isn't "God" at this point.) I don't know if I'd be able to do that... eternal torture is a pretty good threat. I've done worse for less! That would be an interesting (but very scary) world, for sure.
I remembered hearing something very much like this. Took me a while to find it but I think it fits your views quite well.
quote:
“Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand'ring barque,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.”
  —Shakespeare Sonnet 116
This be not error.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 3:35 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 08-30-2022 1:57 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 103 of 3694 (897159)
08-30-2022 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Theodoric
08-29-2022 10:15 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Theodoric writes:
Now you need to look up equivocation.
I'm not equivocating at all. I am merely saying that the still small voice is universally given to all, but at the same time everyone universally is free to reject it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 10:15 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 08-30-2022 2:51 AM GDR has replied
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 11:47 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 104 of 3694 (897160)
08-30-2022 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by GDR
08-30-2022 2:06 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
I'm not equivocating at all. I am merely saying that the still small voice is universally given to all, but at the same time everyone universally is free to reject it.
That's entirely invented isn't it? There's no voice, small or otherwise. (And there's no god, but forget that..)
So I suppose it's a metaphor for knowing right from wrong and there's nothing supernatural about that. And in the words of the song ”what's love got to do with it?”

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by GDR, posted 08-30-2022 2:06 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by GDR, posted 08-30-2022 11:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 3694 (897162)
08-30-2022 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Percy
08-29-2022 5:09 PM


Re: Making It All Up
Percy writes:
The authors of scripture made up the God they thought would empower them most.
Upon reflecting on scripture, this hardly seems probable. The pen may well be mightier than the sword, but Jesus Himself told his disciples to put their swords away.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Percy, posted 08-29-2022 5:09 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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