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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 76 of 3694 (897109)
08-29-2022 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Percy
08-29-2022 2:01 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Percy writes:
Gee that sounds awfully familiar. Is there any possibility you've already made this argument in other threads and are ignoring that you already know what the responses are. Anyway, don't forget how obviously the banana was designed to fit our hand.
Which is why I am so pleased that Stile got the thread back on track.
AbE please see my post #69

Edited by GDR, .


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 08-29-2022 2:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 08-29-2022 2:43 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 77 of 3694 (897112)
08-29-2022 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
08-29-2022 1:35 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Tangle writes:
I think this is a far more productive area of discussion than going over all the same stuff again.

My highly unoriginal thought is that it's the fact that people, when they look up at the stars and do the "what does it all mean, there must e more to it than this" thing that everybody does, then have to make up a meaning.

Religions of all shapes and sizes have filled that hole in our heads for millennia. For some of us though, science has started to fill in some of the hole - just a little bit - and reason has filled in a bit more. Enough at least to be clear that the thousands of world beliefs do not solve the meaning problem.

It seems that us humans need have to have meaning beyond their lifetimes. Because we're unique in being able to see beyond our lifetime and sense our own mortality we think there must be more beyond it. We think we're different and special.

I'm not one of them, I see no reason at all why we should not be just accumulations of atoms and that fact doesn't bother me at all.

Meaning can be found in what we do while we're alive.
I accept that you could well be right. Howver I just don't see it that way.
It turns out as I get older I'm still just me. The cells in my body have been recycled numerous times. However, I'm still just me.
The older I get the more I feel as much more than just my body. I certainly can't prove this. There are those who seem to have out of body experiences but I don't put a lot of stock in that but maybe there is something there.
Also I think taht we are called to live the life that Stile outlined in his post and that there is meaning and purpose in that. It isn't just about survival of the fittest. We have been able to rise above that. I would also add that it isn't just humans that are capable of putting the other before the self.
In the end I have faith that we are to care for the other, for all non-human life and for the planet which does give us an ultimate meaning and purpose.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2022 1:35 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 78 of 3694 (897116)
08-29-2022 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by GDR
08-29-2022 2:05 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
AbE please see my post #69
As I progressed on through the thread I read that post, too. I think the area that poses the most risk of generating hard feelings is the nature of evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 2:05 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 2:45 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 3694 (897117)
08-29-2022 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Percy
08-29-2022 2:43 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Lack of evidence never bothers me. I think that some will follow with no evidence (apart from their newfound desire to follow) while many more won't.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 08-29-2022 2:43 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 80 of 3694 (897118)
08-29-2022 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
08-29-2022 1:35 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Tangle writes:
Meaning can be found in what we do while we're alive.
The greatest of all meaning - the one determined by ourselves for no other reason than we think it's right/good/better-than-the-alternatives.
Let's say God exists and provides "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!"
-what if God's purpose for us is to better ourselves and our fellow humans (and our world, and our solar system, and our...)
-if God gives us this purpose... we become nothing more than a tool... a robot built to follow a guideline. No personal judgement necessary (or desired!)
Let's say God doesn't exist, and there's no other purpose than that which we define for ourselves.
-what if, on our own, as a species, we came up with a purpose to better ourselves and our fellow humans (and our world, and our solar system, and our...)
-I'd say this purpose includes "honour" - there's no reason to follow this purpose other than personal conviction. We don't know if it's "good" or not... we just say "well, it's the most-good thing we can think of, for now!" and get on with it. That's honourable and that sort of honour just doesn't exist if the purpose is provided/expected/given.
In this sense... I think that personally-created-purpose has the potential to be greater and better than any possible "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!" handed over by any other possible entity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2022 1:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 3:01 PM Stile has replied
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 3:08 PM Stile has replied
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2022 3:46 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 3694 (897119)
08-29-2022 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by GDR
08-29-2022 1:13 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Now you see what I have to put up with!
I told my Counselor about EvC and about how nobody has changed their basic stance ever since I got here. He recommended that I cut it loose. He said that everyone here has already made up their minds about what they choose to believe and that nobody will ever change. He wants me to make better use of my time.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 1:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 3:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 09-05-2022 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 274 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 12:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 287 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2022 2:31 PM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 82 of 3694 (897120)
08-29-2022 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by GDR
08-29-2022 1:13 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
quote:
If it is ok I don't see a point in carrying on in this vein. Stile and Ringo have gone back to the point that I wanted to make when I started this thread.
Well, if you want reasoned discussion you do need to do rather better than parroting low-grade apologetics and making lame excuses to dismiss points made in response.
quote:
I find the belief in a world with only materialistic roots to be unfathomable where as you and AZPaul3 hold the very opposite view and as Percy says we have covered this ground before.
I’d point to the old saw about fact being stranger than fiction. Reality isn’t governed by a need to fit into our ideas of what makes sense. There is much we don’t know but I don’t see resorting to fantasies as an answer.
Then again, what you call “a world with only materialistic roots” makes more sense than you allow. On the origins of morality, for instance it seems far better than the strange question-begging approach you prefer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 1:13 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 3694 (897123)
08-29-2022 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Stile
08-29-2022 2:48 PM


Ultimate Objective Purpose
Stile writes:
Let's say God exists and provides "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!"
Do you mean that He imparts it into us? Thus robbing us of the effort and necessity of figuring it out for ourselves.
The counter-argument is that we are incapable of achieving the goal without Holy Communion of some sort.
AA said it first. We are powerless without the higher power.
You may counter that by saying that the facts show we have no higher power.
This does not prevent us from having higher ideals. Perhaps an Ultimate Objective Purpose.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 2:48 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Stile, posted 08-30-2022 11:15 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 3694 (897124)
08-29-2022 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Stile
08-29-2022 2:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Stile writes:
In this sense... I think that personally-created-purpose has the potential to be greater and better than any possible "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!" handed over by any other possible entity.
Perhaps that's what Jesus meant when He said "Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe."
It's not that they believe in themselves or even in humanity alone. It's that they believe that an Ultimate Objective Purpose exists.
You might agree that a well-thought-out and disciplined personally created purpose is as close as you can get.

Edited by Phat, : added final sentence.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 2:48 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Stile, posted 08-30-2022 11:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 85 of 3694 (897125)
08-29-2022 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
08-29-2022 2:49 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes:
Now you see what I have to put up with!

I told my Counselor about EvC and about how nobody has changed their basic stance ever since I got here. He recommended that I cut it loose. He said that everyone here has already made up their minds about what they choose to believe and that nobody will ever change. He wants me to make better use of my time.
I think the problem Phat is that maybe you are focusing on the wrong thing. You and I are theists and understand the world in the light. We believe that we have a creator God that love us and wants us to love all that he has created. As far as others are concerned our job is not necessarily to convert them by debate, but maybe influence them to accept Christ's call on our live which is simply to love others as we love ourselves and to care for all of creation.
I'd suggest reading Matthew 25 and see that the sheep had no idea that the loving things they were doing were actually done to/for Jesus. No mention of any theology. He even mentions at one point in the Gospels that it was one of the hated Roman centurions who was the most faithful and don't forget it was an outsider, a Samaritan, who was the neighbour and to whom He was referring when He told His fellow Jews to go and do likewise.
You might read Stile's post and substitute him into the place of the Samaritan, or you might substitute in a Muslim.
I suggest that you look at your posts and the responses as a discussion and not as a debate where you are trying to score points.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 2:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 3694 (897126)
08-29-2022 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ringo
08-29-2022 12:57 PM


Making It All Up
GDR writes:
My point is that it isn’t about choosing which deity that we choose to worship, but the nature of whatever deity we choose.
ringo writes:
That sounds a lot like making up the God you want and never mind the reality.
Do you really think that the authors of scripture "made up" a God that they didn't want?
You tell me that the God of scripture is as close to reality as we can get in describing God.
What's wrong with me "making up" the God I want while remaining respectful of reality?

Edited by Phat, : punctuation


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 12:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by nwr, posted 08-29-2022 4:10 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 98 by Percy, posted 08-29-2022 5:09 PM Phat has replied
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 11:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(4)
Message 87 of 3694 (897127)
08-29-2022 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by GDR
08-29-2022 2:03 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Yes, I believe that the love that you want to spread is from God, but what matters is that is you are responding to His still small voice.
I'm not sure what "responding to His still small voice" means.
Does God plant seeds in all of us? Does He affect our conscience? Do I have thoughts/feelings/nudges here and there that would not exist if God did not exist?
Are we free to make our own decisions or does God imply to us what is right and what is wrong?
That is... if "I'm" not deciding what is right and wrong, and God is merely "adjusting my thoughts to inform me what is right and wrong" then... I'm not really choosing to do good things (which I think is important.) Your word has more meaning here... I would be responding and doing good things... like a good little robot...
Which raises the question... if God is doing such a thing... what's the point?
-if God put us here to see if we follow Love or not... shouldn't He not nudge us at all?
-if God wants us to follow Love, and nudges us in that direction... why not nudge harder? If "a little bit" of free-will is okay to override so that I'm nudged to help an old lady cross the street... why isn't it okay to override free-will more, in certain instances, so that little Timmy doesn't die of malnutrition at the age of 7?
Seems to me that this "still small voice" of God raises a lot more problems than it solves.
I don't personally really care one way or the other... it's just some interesting thought exercises that spring to my mind when you say such a thing.
Following Love is really what matters.
It's what we do, and what we fail at, and what we try to do better next time with.
There is no "grace vs works" (intentions vs doing.) You need both, and must use both to follow Love.
At many levels this is more Christ like than Christians who do loving things to stay on the right side of God as they believe ultimately that they will benefit.
I agree with the sentiment. I would layer it like this:
I don't think there's anything wrong with doing loving things in order to ultimately benefit oneself.
I think it's better to follow Love simply because you think it's "the right thing to do" - regardless of personal benefit. But I don't think it matters too much.
Why compare why loving things are done, as long as loving things are getting done? The moment one's quest for "personal benefits" gets in the way of doing loving things... that's when concern should begin. But, maybe, personal benefit is the best path to doing the most loving things? If so... shouldn't we all act for personal benefit, then - to do the most loving things?
I usually tend to find myself somewhere in the middle... trying to do good things just because I want to do good things, but also sometimes doing good things because I see a benefit for myself... sometimes both at the same time.
Sometimes I'll do something good just because it's good... but someone else will see that I also obtained a benefit and think I did it for the benefit! Those rogues!!
Not to worry. If we live our lives based on self giving love the next world will take care of itself.
I'm not as confident in not worrying about it. I have a fear that there could be someone watching, possibly not even a "good" someone.. and I'm screwing myself over. But - it's not a big fear. Just one of those every-now-and-then pangs that quickly gets overcome by a sense of following Love to do what I can, when I can, and feeling confident in my own justifications for my actions.
The thing is, even if that fear became reality, if it was known for sure that God existed and He was watching... I'd like to think that I wouldn't care, and still do whatever I thought was best (after taking in whatever advice we could get from this positively-existing God, anyway.) Even if it meant eternal torture (we can assume the god isn't "God" at this point.) I don't know if I'd be able to do that... eternal torture is a pretty good threat. I've done worse for less! That would be an interesting (but very scary) world, for sure.
As a Christian however, I do appreciate understanding the source of that love.
How far does your quest for understanding the source of that love go?
-do you stop at God?
-are you interested in brain-scans of people when they see loved ones enter a room to see what lights up?
-do you think other feelings (possibly similar sources) are all from God? Caution/Fear? Anger/Hate? Anxiousness? Funny?
-what if certain feelings, maybe even Love itself, were scientifically proven to be 100% natural and mundane? Just like us having 5 fingers? Would that change your desire to follow Love?
-does it matter where it comes from? Or does it only matter if we follow Love or not?
To me, if it were proven that Love is 100% natural and mundane... it would become an even greater purpose to follow Love than if some God gave us such orders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 2:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 4:21 PM Stile has replied
 Message 102 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2022 10:37 PM Stile has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 88 of 3694 (897129)
08-29-2022 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Stile
08-29-2022 2:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Stile writes:
he greatest of all meaning - the one determined by ourselves for no other reason than we think it's right/good/better-than-the-alternatives.

Let's say God exists and provides "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!"
-what if God's purpose for us is to better ourselves and our fellow humans (and our world, and our solar system, and our...)
-if God gives us this purpose... we become nothing more than a tool... a robot built to follow a guideline. No personal judgement necessary (or desired!)

Let's say God doesn't exist, and there's no other purpose than that which we define for ourselves.
-what if, on our own, as a species, we came up with a purpose to better ourselves and our fellow humans (and our world, and our solar system, and our...)
-I'd say this purpose includes "honour" - there's no reason to follow this purpose other than personal conviction. We don't know if it's "good" or not... we just say "well, it's the most-good thing we can think of, for now!" and get on with it. That's honourable and that sort of honour just doesn't exist if the purpose is provided/expected/given.

In this sense... I think that personally-created-purpose has the potential to be greater and better than any possible "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!" handed over by any other possible entity.
You and I might agree on stuff like honour and love giving a meaning. Others would put family before everything. And some others like. Trump, Putin etc think that meaning comes in other forms - - power, status, wealth, legacy. Sadly there really isn't clear agreement on this between humanity. If there was, the world would not be the way it is.
The Golden Rule that GDR is so fond of is sadly not universal.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 2:48 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 3:57 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 95 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 4:25 PM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 89 of 3694 (897130)
08-29-2022 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
08-29-2022 3:46 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Tangle writes:
The Golden Rule that GDR is so fond of is sadly not universal.
I'd say that it is universal but ignored more often than not.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2022 3:46 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 3:59 PM GDR has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 90 of 3694 (897131)
08-29-2022 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by GDR
08-29-2022 3:57 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Then it isn't universal is it.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 3:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 4:02 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 4:25 PM Theodoric has replied

  
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