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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 31 of 3694 (897006)
08-27-2022 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
08-27-2022 7:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZPaul3 writes:

No, GDR. The choice is between reality and fantasy.
That is your statement of belief.
No, GDR, that is a statement of fact. It is a binary problem. It is either real or it is fantasy. And since, for the most part, we can easily tell the difference, the distinctions are not difficult to make.
In the case you were presenting deist/theist is acknowledged fantasy since they lack any evidence of efficacy. So the choice you offered was religious fantasy vs not.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 7:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 32 of 3694 (897007)
08-27-2022 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
08-27-2022 7:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
I missed this.
I see a world where we struggle between often choosing between our own good at the expense of another as opposed to loving others at the expense of the self. I believe by faith, and by observation, that we are called to choose the latter.
I see a world where we struggle between often choosing between our own good at the expense of another as opposed to loving others at the expense of the self. I believe by common good that we are compelled to choose the latter.
We could get matching shirts saying "I'm a Humanist". Don't need the twisted illogical baggage of some fantasy religion.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 7:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 2:02 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 33 of 3694 (897013)
08-28-2022 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by AZPaul3
08-27-2022 8:31 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZPaul3 writes:
Yeah, I believe what I believe too. The difference is I have evidence for my views.
You keep saying that what you believe is evidenced based. What is that evidence?
AZPaul3 writes:
What kinds of evidence from a fantasy realm could inform your beliefs?
I'd suggest that there is considerable evidence but nothing that constitutes proof.
There is the fine tuning of the universe required to facilitate life as outlined in the anthropic principle. There is a fact that not only does our world support life but it also supports conscious life and even sentient life that can choose between good and evil, can understand and even create beauty, humour and be able to love.
Yes, you can believe in a mindless root cause for all that and evidence that you can, and do, reject it as being evidence for an intelligent cause for it all. It can be accepted or rejected as evidence for such an intelligence.
What is the evidence you have for a mindless root cause for our existence?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 8:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 3:24 AM GDR has replied
 Message 45 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 8:56 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 34 of 3694 (897015)
08-28-2022 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
08-27-2022 9:24 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZPaul3 writes:
I see a world where we struggle between often choosing between our own good at the expense of another as opposed to loving others at the expense of the self. I believe by common good that we are compelled to choose the latter.
Again, that is a statement of belief, and even if we accept it as fact it does not in any way eliminate the possibility that we are that way because we are designed that way.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 9:24 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 4:44 AM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 35 of 3694 (897016)
08-28-2022 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by GDR
08-27-2022 5:39 PM


quote:
I agree and apologise. I felt that I was responding in kind and that is not justification
It was not even responding in kind. Be glad that I chose not to continue the escalation that you had started.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:39 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 2:48 AM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 3694 (897017)
08-28-2022 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by GDR
08-27-2022 4:27 PM


Practcing The Art Of Discussion
PaulK writes:
If there is a real deity - as you claim - it is the way it is. Your choice won’t change that.
That's one of the better philosophical points you have made. I know that you are an atheist (a materialist IIRC) and you do often get me to think without insulting me. I appreciate it.
Tangle thinks it's all madness, but I think that he wishes that the Bronze Age Goat Herder belief system would "grow up" or something.
And as far as choosing a faith, not to choose is to choose. All is well with the world and we will always need each other.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:27 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 1:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 3694 (897018)
08-28-2022 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
08-28-2022 2:16 AM


Self Correction
PaulK, addressing GDR writes:
Be glad that I chose not to continue the escalation that you had started.
I would think that you yourself should be glad. It proves that an atheist can be self-correcting and take the high road. We would suggest that a Higher Intelligence works behind the scenes in all of us (believer and unbeliever alike) but it is totally rational and acceptable to believe that you are self-correcting and becoming better each day without the need of a Deity. We all should be glad for each other getting a bit calmer and more rational day by day. And we should forgive each other for having snippy days where we appear to regress. That's being human.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2022 2:16 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2022 3:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 38 of 3694 (897019)
08-28-2022 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
08-28-2022 2:48 AM


Re: Self Correction
quote:
I would think that you yourself should be glad. It proves that an atheist can be self-correcting and take the high road.
That would be better directed at GDR since he made a partial self-correction, while I simply stayed (relatively) civil instead of retaliating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 2:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 39 of 3694 (897020)
08-28-2022 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
08-28-2022 1:58 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZPaul3 writes:
Yeah, I believe what I believe too. The difference is I have evidence for my views.
You keep saying that what you believe is evidenced based. What is that evidence?
Physics. All of it. We may not know where it all came from but we know what it all has, and has not, done since the first second of creation. There is nothing in the universe that indicates even a hint of the kinds of super intellect or devine universal Grand Poobah you posit. And since we know the physics so well, we can tell no god has interfered with this universe because there is no trail of causality/effect where there damn well should be if your fantasies were real and some god intervened.
AZPaul3 writes:
What kinds of evidence from a fantasy realm could inform your beliefs?
I'd suggest that there is considerable evidence but nothing that constitutes proof.
Ahh, the Dredge syndrome.
That’s ok, GDR. This is science and we don’t deal in proof. We deal in the preponderance of the evidence and the processes they reveal. There is nothing else.
Again, there is nothing else … that anyone can show.
There is the fine tuning of the universe required to facilitate life …
I site the same laundry list to evidence a natural world sans your fine tuning. We know how many of these, especially the emotions, manifest in our heads, causing good boys to be bad and bad boys to be good by messing with their brains chemically and physically. We know how these things work and how they work by, what appears to be, only natural processes. No gods necessary or evident.
Fine tuning is a human artifact created to give the gods a hand in the universe. It is a bogus concept and, based upon discussions this forum has had in the past, appears to fine tune the universe, not for life, but for stars. Life = 1. Stars = 1024. What this universe is showing us is it prodigiously creates stars from this supposed fine tuning.
Yes, you can believe in a mindless root cause for all that and evidence that you can, and do, reject it as being evidence for an intelligent cause for it all. It can be accepted or rejected as evidence for such an intelligence.
Without a reason grounded in physical evidence, there is no reason to entertain fantasy. Without such, your conjecture is useless. Such can never be accepted. There is nothing there.
What is the evidence you have for a mindless root cause for our existence?
The fact that, in all the universe, there is no other viable option.
Ok, plus a trillion, trillion or so items from literally all the sciences showing, as a clear preponderance of the evidence, that all processes ever observed, either directly or indirectly, are natural in origin and operation. There has never been any hint of evidence of the majik you seek to believe to spark such a speculation.
Now, please understand, you are into items we have exceptional confidence in. To challenge the science saying this majik occurred is to lose the argument instantly, unless you can provide more and stronger evidence than we have for our side. I don’t think you can do that.
I don’t think you can ever provide the kinds and numbers of evidences of your fantasies that could challenge the reality as our sciences have revealed it. And remember, please, we are talking about a total zip on direct evidence you could point to that could only be done by a god but also the marks on the universe that should be there scratched in the heavens if the stories of your gods were real. In this universe even your god must obey Mother Nature.

Edited by AZPaul3, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 1:58 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 5:26 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 40 of 3694 (897026)
08-28-2022 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
08-28-2022 2:02 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Again, that is a statement of belief, and even if we accept it as fact it does not in any way eliminate the possibility that we are that way because we are designed that way.
Yes it was a statement of humanist belief. It mirrored your statement quite precisely. This society does not need religious structure to invoke humanist actions. There is reason enough just in being human.
What eliminates the possibility of us being designed is the total lack of any evidence (yeah, that old mantra) to suppose this is even possible. You have to first show a designer, then the method, then the ...
It goes on. You provide nothing to support such a notion. Why do you bring it up? You provide no reason for anyone to entertain such a thing as viable.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 2:02 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:35 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 3694 (897027)
08-28-2022 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by AZPaul3
08-28-2022 3:24 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
This is a Faith & Belief Forum. No evidence is required, at least of the objective variety.
And in the realm of Faith and imagination, your words (coated with hatred for all things theistic) are powerless. You have less power to eliminate God than God has to oversee your eventual death and future existence. At that time, you will finally see the evidence that your desperate mind wants to avoid. Of course, you won't believe me. Largely because it is the last thing you would ever want.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 3:24 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 7:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 9:24 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 3694 (897028)
08-28-2022 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by AZPaul3
08-28-2022 4:44 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZ Does It writes:
This society does not need a religious structure to invoke humanist actions.
Perhaps not, but it needs more than humanist actions to survive much past the next hundred years. You know the data. Tell me I'm wrong!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 4:44 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 11:23 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 43 of 3694 (897030)
08-28-2022 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
08-28-2022 6:32 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Well, Phat man, when you are right, you are right. I am not a fan of theisms of any kind and like snakes and wasps, when ya see one ya gotta kill it.
I do feel I've hijacked GDR's thread. He wanted to talk about selection criteria for gods and I storm in here demanding reality from a fantasy thread.
I think I'll bow out here and let you all entertain us with your imaginings.
Thanks, again, Phat.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 44 of 3694 (897031)
08-28-2022 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by GDR
08-27-2022 6:17 PM


GDR writes:
For example why is it that your reject all that you do and simply call yourself spiritual.
That's your takeaway from what I said? Interesting. I think you may be interpreting what people say about their own beliefs through a lens of your own beliefs. I am not seeking spiritual answers. That's your gig. In my world the spiritual realm has no more reality than hobbits.
But clearly you don't believe us when we say we literally give it no thought. You instead see us as in a state of conscious and effortful denial and rejection of the Lord of the universe whose proof lies in every blade of grass.
How does that impact your life.
How does what I really said about my beliefs impact my life? Other than influencing what I say in religious discussions like this, not one whit. Why would I ever spend any time thinking about things I have no evidence are real, like griffins and gods, let alone let them influence my life?
Yes I do have reasons for believing what I do which isn't to say that some of the reasons aren't simply cultural and from other influences in my life. I joke that I am the only one who has their theology 100% correct but I know full well that isn't the case. Even one of my favourite theologians, N T Wright, often says in his lectures that about 1/3 of what he is going to say will be wrong with the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is. I'm probably more in the 3/4 bracket.
Let me paraphrase this back to you, but with a different subject of focus:
quote:
Yes I do have reasons for believing the ether exists, which isn't to say that some of the reasons aren't simply personal or from other scientists I find influential. I joke that I am the only one who has their science 100% correct but I know full well that isn't the case. Even one of my favorite scientists often says in his lectures that about 1/3 of what he is going to say will be wrong with the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is. I'm probably more in the 3/4 bracket.
If after saying this I state that I still believe the ether exists then I am obviously just believing what I want to believe. And that's how we see you. In our view, your writings do not support what you believe. They're just the mental meanderings of someone who despite all the evidence to the contrary believes that information leading him to what he should truly believe is out there somewhere.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 6:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 45 of 3694 (897032)
08-28-2022 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
08-28-2022 1:58 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
I'd suggest that there is considerable evidence but nothing that constitutes proof.
In the real world, which includes science, there's no such thing as proof. That's the realm of mathematics. If you have "considerable evidence" for your beliefs then we would like an opportunity to examine it.
There is the fine tuning of the universe required to facilitate life as outlined in the anthropic principle. There is a fact that not only does our world support life but it also supports conscious life and even sentient life that can choose between good and evil, can understand and even create beauty, humour and be able to love.

Yes, you can believe in a mindless root cause for all that and evidence that you can, and do, reject it as being evidence for an intelligent cause for it all. It can be accepted or rejected as evidence for such an intelligence.
This is just mental masturbation. There's no evidence in any of this.
What is the evidence you have for a mindless root cause for our existence?
You're asking the wrong question. We accept what the evidence supports. Currently there is no evidence of a cosmic intelligence.
You might be heading down the same path that led you to abandon EvC in the first place. Will we soon see a claim that your evidence satisfies different criteria than those of science but that it is just as valid anyway? If so, this will expose you to the kind of treatment you object to.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 1:58 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 4:36 PM Percy has replied

  
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