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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 16 of 3694 (896990)
08-27-2022 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
08-27-2022 3:42 PM


Re: We aren’t chosen for salvation, but for vocation.
Hi Phat. Congrats on your perseverance.
Phat writes:
it would still mean that God chose ALL for vocation. This lines up with jars argument that we are Christians based on what we *Do*.
No, I don't see it that way. When we read the Bible holistically we can understand that what God is concerned about is our hearts. The OT largely felt that to get Yahweh on your side you had to follow a set of laws. Jesus' message was that it wasn't about the laws of the church but about the law of the heart which was simply that we are called to love sacrificially. Doing Good Works in order to get God on your side becomes simply another law akin to circumcision.
One place that this is clear is in Matt 25 and the sheep and the goats. The sheep did what they did in giving up time and resources to help others, (and here is the key), they were doing it without realizing that by doing what they did they were serving God. They were doing it because that was where their hearts were. Good deeds if done to get yourself in good with God may well help someone but from a heart POV they are worthless.
Phat writes:
A lot of my critics here at EvC claim that the OT God was a Monster, but my explanation is that the warlike people wanted (and thus interpreted) God as a warmongering monster. They essentially put words in Yahweh's mouth.
Yes, they all had their motivations for what they wrote. All through the Gospels we can see that the disciples were still looking for a military victory over the Romans. In Acts 1 we can still see that they thought the resurrected Jesus had returned to do just that. Essentially Jesus did believe in the revolution but only in non-violent revolution. His message was that it wasn't the Romans that were the problem, but the enemy was really the evil in the world, and that the weapon against evil is love.
Phat writes:
If anyone thinks that is only an ancient trait, look at believers in any modern war. We tend to cherry-pick verses that have God blessing us and supporting our war while opposing the "intrinsic evil" of the enemy.
Absolutely.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 3:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 962 by Phat, posted 10-12-2022 6:22 AM GDR has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 17 of 3694 (896991)
08-27-2022 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by GDR
08-27-2022 4:21 PM


Rather than reply to your response to my post, it seems more appropriate to respond to this:
Tangle writes:
Here we go again, full circle. Like none of the previous arguments ever happened and now we go through them all agains.

It's the definition of madness.

It was this type of post that caused me to give up on this site in the first place.
But Tangle's describing exactly what you're doing. You're faulting him for this?
You're doing one of the ten most common things people do here, disappear for a while and then return and attempt to reinitiate the discussion from scratch. Dredge and Greatest I am just did this last month. Mike the wiz can't be far behind.
What is the point of this forum then?
I would say that the purpose of this forum is to move discussion constructively forward through moderated debate, but over 20 years of discussion have demonstrated that this just isn't possible. Most everyone with insufficient or no evidence for their position eventually throws up obstacles to discussion or abandons it altogether.
It's perfectly legitimate to eschew examination of the evidential foundations for your beliefs in the Faith and Belief forum, you're well within your rights. You can have a discussion with Phat, Dredge and Greatest I am about different perspectives on God and Jesus. But I don't think the rest of us are interested if you don't first provide some evidence that we're discussing something real.
You have your atheistic beliefs and I have my Christian beliefs. I thought that the idea is to discuss our beliefs.
I'm not an atheist or an agnostic or an adherent to any religion, but I do have spiritual beliefs for which I recognize that I have no evidence whatsoever. If you have beliefs for which you do have evidence then I am very interested, but not otherwise.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:37 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 18 of 3694 (896992)
08-27-2022 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
08-27-2022 4:44 PM


Tangle writes:
This is just disingenuous. You left because you couldn't persuade us and got frustrated. And you're back to give it another go using the same assertions. Why?
So you know what I was thinking better than I do. Just a tad arrogant. I never really expected to change anyone's beliefs. I only wanted to have a discussion on the major issue in my life, and to get other perspectives.
Tangle writes:
I no longer think there is any point, it's a form of mental illness, albeit fairly benign.
Then why on earth are you still here, and why bother to reply to my post. Most of the theists have left so largely, other than Phat, this has been essentially a site on which and others can discuss the beliefs that you hold in common. So from that POV you are right, and I don't belong here and the whole point of establishing this site has completely changed. If that is the case I will disappear back into the cloud.
Tangle writes:
Yeh, that was the idea, but we did that. What do you have that's new to discuss? What is it that you think hasn't been said?
Maybe I don't have anything new. Beats me. However, I continue to read and my views change over time.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2022 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 5:51 PM GDR has replied
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2022 6:02 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 19 of 3694 (896994)
08-27-2022 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by PaulK
08-27-2022 4:35 PM


PaulK writes:
Thank you for that example of the problem - by resorting to false insinuations rather than addressing the issue,

It is not agreement but the ability to engage in reason which is the issue. If you make an obviously false assertion and if your arguments fail to support it and if you do not address the counter arguments - you are not engaging in reasoned discussion.
You made the insinuation that my posts weren't reasoned and yet I have yet to see anyone, including you, tell me why the things that I posted in this thread weren't reasoned. I haven't seen any counter arguments. This is "faith and belief" so no, there are no know-down answers for what I believe.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 4:35 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 5:35 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 20 of 3694 (896995)
08-27-2022 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
08-27-2022 5:20 PM


quote:
You made the insinuation that my posts weren't reasoned and yet I have yet to see anyone, including you, tell me why the things that I posted in this thread weren't reasoned
Since I was talking about your supposed reasons for leaving it would hardly be about this thread.
And of course we have your insinuation - which I regard as a personal attack:
Do people have to agree with you to make it a reasoned discussion?
That certainly does not count as “reasoned”. And if you are “called to spread God’s love as embodied by Jesus into the world” that sort of hostility is counter-productive,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 21 of 3694 (896996)
08-27-2022 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Percy
08-27-2022 4:56 PM


Percy writes:
You're doing one of the ten most common things people do here, disappear for a while and then return and attempt to reinitiate the discussion from scratch. Dredge and Greatest I am just did this last month. Mike the wiz can't be far behind.
I checked in on this site recently and I viewed the debate with essentially being between a rejection of Christianity. I was interested in a more generic view that rejected a fundamentalist understanding of the Bible. I thought that I might be able to propose the view of God as a cosmic intelligence that wanted us to live lives that are in line with "The Golden Rule". I expressed the view that this could be help by people of any religion or by anyone with no particular religious belief. I don't think that I had really expressed that POV previously.
AbE Frankly I also came here to learn. I am interested in both science and theology. I have had no scientific background and learned a lot from various members of this forum. Cavediver and Son Guko were particularly informative although often it went over my head. So there was that I enjoyed discussing theology and I gained perspective there. That discussion led me to really appreciate Chris Hitchens where I found often that I agreed more with him than I did the Christians he was debating.
However, it appears that I'm not a good fit here, But I do thank you for the educational tool this forum has been for me.

Edited by GDR, .


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 4:56 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 6:12 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 22 of 3694 (896997)
08-27-2022 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulK
08-27-2022 5:35 PM


PaulK writes:
That certainly does not count as “reasoned”. And if you are “called to spread God’s love as embodied by Jesus into the world” that sort of hostility is counter-productive,
I agree and apologise. I felt that I was responding in kind and that is not justification.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 5:35 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2022 2:16 AM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 23 of 3694 (896998)
08-27-2022 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-27-2022 5:08 PM


GDR writes:
Tangle writes:
I no longer think there is any point, it's a form of mental illness, albeit fairly benign.

Then why on earth are you still here, and why bother to reply to my post.
I think all us long timers ask ourselves questions like this. Perhaps something like Tangle's analysis is right. We're in some way obsessed and unable to break away, but it does seem fairly harmless.
But I keep returning to the psychological reasons. Observing people respond when their unevidenced beliefs are challenged is fascinating, though it often reveals a very common pattern where rather than seeing a subtopic explored to a conclusion of some sort they instead change the subject and cycle endlessly through a rotating cast of issues. I don't know that any other outcome is really possible when no evidence is involved, though what constitutes evidence is a common subtopic, for instance like claims that fulfilled prophecy is evidence of God and so forth.
Stick to your guns and your topic. Your encouragement to Tangle to ignore your posts works in the other direction, too. I think only by ignoring us naysayers will you get to discuss your topic. I don't think you'll find the discussion as interesting, but neither will it be as frustrating. Just click the "You have not replied" link at the bottom of the message and it will change to "You have seen this message but not replied," then move on. You can always change your mind later and reply anyway.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 6:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 24 of 3694 (896999)
08-27-2022 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-27-2022 5:08 PM


GDR writes:
So you know what I was thinking better than I do.
I know what you think because you've told us, over and over. If something has changed for you, best to tell us now - it would save a lot of time. But I'm prepared to bet it hasn't.
I never really expected to change anyone's beliefs. I only wanted to have a discussion on the major issue in my life, and to get other perspectives.
You had the discussion, you made over 5,000 posts
Then why on earth are you still here, and why bother to reply to my post.
Hope over expectation plus a little mental illness.
Most of the theists have left so largely, other than Phat, this has been essentially a site on which and others can discuss the beliefs that you hold in common.
We don't need to discuss them because we have them in common, so we don't. This isn't a religion, we don't feel the need to express our faith together and ritually worship Newton or Darwin or Segan to reinforce our beliefs.
The work here now is feeding crazy trolls, baiting nut jobs, calling anti-vaxxers names and trying not to feel bad about it. Sad. (As another famous nut job once said.)
So from that POV you are right, and I don't belong here and the whole point of establishing this site has completely changed. If that is the case I will disappear back into the cloud.
This site is sadly, redundant. The God vs Evolution if it's happening at all now - I doubt it , god debates are no longer fashionable - is not happening on sites like this. Most have retreated to blogs, ie preaching or are encamped behind their own lines.
Maybe I don't have anything new. Beats me. However, I continue to read and my views change over time.
Right. So now's the time to think about it. If you have something new to say that isn't just "I believe that..." we'd all be very grateful to discuss it with you. Maybe even civilly..

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:08 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 25 of 3694 (897000)
08-27-2022 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by GDR
08-27-2022 5:37 PM


Welcome Back GDR
Welcome back, guy. How you been? I see you haven't converted to atheist yet.
Firstly, I contend that there is only one cosmic intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
I’d ask, based on what, but I think I know the answer. It certainly isn’t on our experiences with reality.
As theists we all form our own view of the nature of our deity and that is an issue of faith.
I would venture that most people, by a vast majority, accept the god of their family, most often being the one of the larger culture. They don’t give the matter much thought after that and it seems for most this is where the story ends. Kids don’t get to select different mascots for school. They learn to love the one the school gives them and they do so without question. So people have a ready rote response to the question “Who’s your god?” The attributes of said favored god are no issue for most. As the kids are told, since he is god he can do anything and we do not question. I’m thinking the nature of the deity means very little to most people’s selection … a selection which they didn’t consciously make anyway.
Secondly I suggest that the Bible was inspired.
I know. No reality. Faith only. Got it.
The more modern scholarship analyses the ancient texts, their tone and syntax along with their history, the more clear it becomes that this bible, in whatever of it’s various incarnations, is lacking efficacy.
But, hey. You have faith. It’s majik. All the defects are fixed.
I used the term “cosmic intelligence” purposely as it doesn’t have to imply a single entity.
Since it is a fantasy it can have any attributes you so desire.
Ultimately, if we spend the time thinking about such things, we can choose between atheism, deism or theism.
No, GDR. The choice is between reality and fantasy.
If evolution is used as evidence for atheism, then that is a faith claim and not scientific.
The only ones trying this ruse are the fundamentalist theists. Actual atheists know better. Evolution is evidence of the great diversity of organisms life spawned on this planet with fiat creation playing no part whatsoever.
I simply look upon it as an incredibly beautiful and well thought out way of developing life. That leaves me with a cosmic intelligence.
You are not seeing the same evolution this world actually experiences. Evolution is a messy, complex turmoil of competing forces with death at every turn. Not beautiful in the least. And so disjointed and haphazard it is clear evolution cannot design but throws layers of complexity on top of other existing complexity and periodically getting something that survives. Your view of beautiful is lacking. Fascinating is the word to use. Evolution is fascinating.
The fact that this is such a universal axiom does lead in the direction that the desire of any cosmic intelligence would be that we should live with that as our world view.
No it does not. It leads to the already known “social animal” aspects of our evolution up from fish. The golden rule is a survival strategy that works in a social species. There’s no super majical element to it. We’ve looked. We know this one.
I understand your articles of faith. I do not understand an intelligent guy needing such imaginary crutches to deal with this world. You have a cognitive screw loose, GDR. You are letting a fantasy world lead you by the nose.
But, hey, till you die it’s your world. Have at it.
However, it appears that I'm not a good fit here
Well, you’re not much of an atheist. And as an anti-theist you are hopelessly incompetent. But as a religious weenie you fit right in. Just what our discussions need.
Welcome back again.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 7:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 26 of 3694 (897001)
08-27-2022 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-27-2022 5:51 PM


Percy writes:
I think all us long timers ask ourselves questions like this. Perhaps something like Tangle's analysis is right. We're in some way obsessed and unable to break away, but it does seem fairly harmless.
Prior to reading this I edited my last response to you. I will always be grateful for this forum and the education it gave me.
Percy writes:
But I keep returning to the psychological reasons. Observing people respond when their unevidenced beliefs are challenged is fascinating, though it often reveals a very common pattern where rather than seeing a subtopic explored to a conclusion of some sort they instead change the subject and cycle endlessly through a rotating cast of issues. I don't know that any other outcome is really possible when no evidence is involved, though what constitutes evidence is a common subtopic, for instance like claims that fulfilled prophecy is evidence of God and so forth.

Stick to your guns and your topic. Your encouragement to Tangle to ignore your posts works in the other direction, too. I think only by ignoring us naysayers will you get to discuss your topic. I don't think you'll find the discussion as interesting, but neither will it be as frustrating. Just click the "You have not replied" link at the bottom of the message and it will change to "You have seen this message but not replied," then move on. You can always change your mind later and reply anyway.
The problem is that no naysayer, except Paulk has responded to what I said and asked for the reason for me believing that way, or expressed what they believ in opposition to it.
Yes it is a faith, but we all have unevidenced, (at least from a scientific POV), beliefs. For example why is it that your reject all that you do and simply call yourself spiritual. How does that impact your life. I only say that as we are expressing a picture of our existence based on what is fundamentally on philosophical understandings.
Yes I do have reasons for believing what I do which isn't to say that some of the reasons aren't simply cultural and from other influences in my life. I joke that I am the only one who has their theology 100% correct but I know full well that isn't the case. Even one of my favourite theologians, N T Wright, often says in his lectures that about 1/3 of what he is going to say will be wrong with the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is. I'm probably more in the 3/4 bracket.
I am interested in other views but I'm pretty much only hearing that I am wrong and rehashing old material.
As I said maybe I'm not a good fit here. Waddaya think?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 5:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 8:06 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 30 by nwr, posted 08-27-2022 9:03 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 8:41 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 27 of 3694 (897002)
08-27-2022 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
08-27-2022 6:12 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
I'm out of time so I'll just respond to this for now.
AZPaul3 writes:
Still Christian but hopefully still learning. Thanks for the welcome. Doing well. It's been 7 years since a 10 hour surgery for a olfactory neuro-blastomy as well as radiation and still cancer free.
GDR writes:
Firstly, I contend that there is only one cosmic intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
AZPaul3 writes:
I’d ask, based on what, but I think I know the answer. It certainly isn’t on our experiences with reality.
I mentioned this earlier but in general most people of any or no faith understand that there is both good and evil with all sorts of greys in the middle. The understanding that we seem to hold in common is the golden rule. It is hardly knock down evidence but I think that it is enough to consider that there is a universal truth behind that which would cause us to consider a morality that comes from somewhere other than the self. I think that it is also indicative to consider that if there is something else out there then it has a consistent nature. The main objection to that is in my view is from extreme religious beliefs held by those who want to serve a deity that will then in turn serve themselves.
AZPaul3 writes:
I would venture that most people, by a vast majority, accept the god of their family, most often being the one of the larger culture. They don’t give the matter much thought after that and it seems for most this is where the story ends. Kids don’t get to select different mascots for school. They learn to love the one the school gives them and they do so without question. So people have a ready rote response to the question “Who’s your god?” The attributes of said favored god are no issue for most. As the kids are told, since he is god he can do anything and we do not question. I’m thinking the nature of the deity means very little to most people’s selection … a selection which they didn’t consciously make anyway.
I think that is very often true and I would agree that I am affected by my upbringing. However I spent considerable time in a very secular environment, (air force), spent many years as seeing it all irrelevant as an agnostic so in many ways my culture took me away from whatever tenuous Christian beliefs I had.
I came to Christianity by CS Lewis and Mere Christianity. Since then however I have read hundreds of books from people as diverse as Richard Dawkins and even some fundamentalists.
GDR writes:
Secondly I suggest that the Bible was inspired.
AZPaul3 writes:
I know. No reality. Faith only. Got it.

The more modern scholarship analyses the ancient texts, their tone and syntax along with their history, the more clear it becomes that this bible, in whatever of it’s various incarnations, is lacking efficacy.

But, hey. You have faith. It’s majik. All the defects are fixed.
You kinda cherry picked that statement. I went on to explain what I meant by that. I would agree that Beethoven was inspired to write music. I am only saying that the Biblical authors were inspired to write about their world and their understandings. When the Bible said that Yahweh committed and commanded genocide and public stoning I believe that the motivation in writing that was self centred and wrong.
I don't believe that the Bible being inspired in any way means that it was dictated by God.
Paul3 writes:
Since it is a fantasy it can have any attributes you so desire.
Yes, it is faith. I see a world where we struggle between often choosing between our own good at the expense of another as opposed to loving others at the expense of the self. I believe by faith, and by observation, that we are called to choose the latter.
So yes, even if my Christian beliefs are out of whack, I will hold on to that belief.
AZPaul3 writes:
No, GDR. The choice is between reality and fantasy.
That is your statement of belief.
AZPaul3 writes:
You are not seeing the same evolution this world actually experiences. Evolution is a messy, complex turmoil of competing forces with death at every turn. Not beautiful in the least. And so disjointed and haphazard it is clear evolution cannot design but throws layers of complexity on top of other existing complexity and periodically getting something that survives. Your view of beautiful is lacking. Fascinating is the word to use. Evolution is fascinating.
NOthing there that I disagree with. IMHO it is far more likely to have an intelligent root that it is to have a mindless root.
AZPaul3 writes:
No it does not. It leads to the already known “social animal” aspects of our evolution up from fish. The golden rule is a survival strategy that works in a social species. There’s no super majical element to it. We’ve looked. We know this one.
Darwin agreed with the statement that evolution involved the survival of the fittest. I'm involved with a school for homeless young women in Uganda. I would be better off if there was no human life in Uganda and my society could have access to all their resources. Evolution does not explain altruism, again IMHO.
AZPaul3 writes:
I understand your articles of faith. I do not understand an intelligent guy needing such imaginary crutches to deal with this world. You have a cognitive screw loose, GDR. You are letting a fantasy world lead you by the nose.
After much study and thought i believe that my beliefs represent what I believe to be true. I see Christianity as making more sense of the world that I exist in than any other view that I have encountered.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 6:12 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 8:31 PM GDR has replied
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 9:04 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 9:24 PM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 28 of 3694 (897003)
08-27-2022 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by GDR
08-27-2022 6:17 PM


I am interested in other views but I'm pretty much only hearing that I am wrong and rehashing old material.
Well, yes. That is what's happening. Some of these other views you are interested in are not going to be supportive. Especially from the non-fantasy non-religious side.
I know that puts a damper on discussion since whenever we seek evidence for the stuff you are putting forward you can't produce any. It's all faith and faith can be anything. Why do you not give your cosmic consciousness a pulsating green strobe? It's just fantasy and can be anything. Why did your imagination not conjure other attributes along with cosmic and consciousness? Does it wear a Tam O'Sha but you're keeping that from us?
You have to know that you cannot just say it is and, even for the sake of discussion, expect us to accept whatever crazy fantasy you conjure. We're going to make fun of your inability to support your points with anything other than vaporware, fantasyware. We're going to tell you you are wrong when you're wrong.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 6:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 29 of 3694 (897004)
08-27-2022 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
08-27-2022 7:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
After much study and thought i believe that my beliefs represent what I believe to be true.
Yeah, I believe what I believe too. The difference is I have evidence for my views.
What kinds of evidence from a fantasy realm could inform your beliefs? Emotional syllogisms? Bad math? More fantasies?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 7:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 1:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1709 by Phat, posted 01-09-2023 3:09 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 30 of 3694 (897005)
08-27-2022 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by GDR
08-27-2022 6:17 PM


Some background. I dropped out of Christianity almost 60 years ago. And, at that time, I pretty much decided that I didn't want to get involved in religion.
The problem is that no naysayer, except Paulk has responded to what I said and asked for the reason for me believing that way, or expressed what they believ in opposition to it.
I don't need to know the reasons for your belief. You are entitled to believe as you wish. I think I did indicate that I disagree with the idea of a cosmic intelligence. But I'm not saying you are wrong. I only say that I disagree. But perhaps we have few common interests so there might not be much to discuss.
Continuing with a response to Message 27:
I don't believe that the Bible being inspired in any way means that it was dictated by God.
There, I can agree.
IMHO it is far more likely to have an intelligent root that it is to have a mindless root.
I take the view that all life is intelligent. Yes, a mouse is more intelligent than a tree, but there even some intelligence in the tree.
I can agree that there is something intelligent about evolution. But that comes from distributed intelligence -- a little in each organism -- rather than intelligence concentrated in a single mind.
Darwin agreed with the statement that evolution involved the survival of the fittest. I'm involved with a school for homeless young women in Uganda. I would be better off if there was no human life in Uganda and my society could have access to all their resources. Evolution does not explain altruism, again IMHO.
You might be looking at "fitness" too narrowly. There's a notion of "inclusive fitness" which counts what you contribute to the population as a whole.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 6:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
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