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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(3)
Message 661 of 1429 (896617)
08-15-2022 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by Dredge
08-15-2022 5:33 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
It's a serious question. How can a scientist claim to "know how evolution works" if science doesn't prove anything?
Same way most people can claim to "know how to drive from Canada to Mexico" without needing to prove they've done it before in the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Dredge, posted 08-15-2022 5:33 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 662 of 1429 (896622)
08-15-2022 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Phat
08-15-2022 9:42 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Are you a troll or an idiot?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Phat, posted 08-15-2022 9:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by Phat, posted 08-15-2022 12:48 PM Theodoric has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 663 of 1429 (896624)
08-15-2022 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by Dredge
08-14-2022 2:39 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
... how can a scientist claim to "know how evolution works"?
He "knows how it works" if he can use it to make things work. For example, if he understands common ancestry, the relatedness of all life, he can find alternative sources of insulin - e.g. our cousins the cows and pigs.
Knowledge works.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by Dredge, posted 08-14-2022 2:39 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 664 of 1429 (896625)
08-15-2022 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by Phat
08-15-2022 9:34 AM


Re: To Know: Two Different Definitions
Phat writes:
They accuse you of being a troll because you tease them and stick to your own definitions and understanding of know and truth.
No. We accuse him of being a troll because he ignores the responses to his trolling. He doesn't discuss; he just repeats his trolling.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Phat, posted 08-15-2022 9:34 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1355 by Phat, posted 12-20-2022 6:32 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 665 of 1429 (896626)
08-15-2022 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Phat
08-15-2022 9:42 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Phat writes:
Ask a believer if they *know* God.
French has separate words for knowing something (savoir) and knowing somebody (connaitre).
Phat writes:
Then ask them if they know everything about God.
I can know a lot about James Bond. That has nothing to do with whether or not he's real.
Phat writes:
Only religion insists on 100% claims.
That's because religion is lazy thinking. We invented science because religion doesn't provide reliable conclusions. Science is very rigorous in paring down those 100% claims.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Phat, posted 08-15-2022 9:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by Theodoric, posted 08-15-2022 1:23 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 690 by Phat, posted 08-16-2022 9:42 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 666 of 1429 (896627)
08-15-2022 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by Theodoric
08-15-2022 12:07 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Are you a troll or an idiot?
Are those my only choices?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Theodoric, posted 08-15-2022 12:07 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Theodoric, posted 08-15-2022 1:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 667 of 1429 (896628)
08-15-2022 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by ringo
08-15-2022 12:36 PM


To know has many definitions
Spanish also has multiple words for to know. Saber y Conocer.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by ringo, posted 08-15-2022 12:36 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by dwise1, posted 08-15-2022 1:55 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 668 of 1429 (896629)
08-15-2022 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by Phat
08-15-2022 12:48 PM


If it walks like a duck.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by Phat, posted 08-15-2022 12:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 669 of 1429 (896630)
08-15-2022 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Theodoric
08-15-2022 1:23 PM


Re: To know has many definitions
Und bei Deutsch gibt's drei:
  • Wissen -- to know a fact (como saber)
  • Kennen -- to know a person (como conecer)
  • Können -- to know how to do something (como poder)
Können is also the modal verb for being able to do something as in the English "can". So "Do you know German?" would be "Kannst du Deutsch?" Somehow I seem to recall that French or Spanish would use "savoir" or "saber" respectively for knowing a language or how to do something, but I'm somewhat rusty on that point.
 
However, kennen can also be used for a language as in the well-known adage:
quote
"Wer eine Fremdsprache nicht kennt, weiss nichts von seiner eigenen." -- Goethe
("He who doesn't know a foreign language knows nothing of his own.")
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Theodoric, posted 08-15-2022 1:23 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 670 of 1429 (896638)
08-15-2022 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by Phat
08-15-2022 9:34 AM


Re: To Know: Two Different Definitions
Deleted

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Phat, posted 08-15-2022 9:34 AM Phat has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 671 of 1429 (896640)
08-15-2022 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 656 by vimesey
08-15-2022 6:28 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
vimesey writes:
When we say scientists know something, we are not saying they've proved it - we are saying they have mountains of evidence to demonstrate the validity of the relevant hypotheses.
You have nothing other than a conman's word games.
Who's conning whom? In future, whenever I hear a scientist claiming to "know" something, I will bear in mind that what he really means is, "I don't actually know ... but I'm pretty sure". I'm not aware of any dictionary that supports the "scientific definition" of that word.
And I suppose it's safe to assume that the scientific interpretation of "knowledge" is as misleading and unorthodox as their use of "know".
I hope the law courts are aware that if a scientist takes the stand and says "I know the defendent stole my car", what he really means is, "I'm pretty sure the defendent stole my car".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by vimesey, posted 08-15-2022 6:28 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by dwise1, posted 08-15-2022 9:15 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 673 by Theodoric, posted 08-15-2022 9:38 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 679 by vimesey, posted 08-16-2022 2:55 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 681 by ringo, posted 08-16-2022 11:48 AM Dredge has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 672 of 1429 (896641)
08-15-2022 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Dredge
08-15-2022 8:58 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Dredge, posted 08-15-2022 8:58 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 673 of 1429 (896642)
08-15-2022 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Dredge
08-15-2022 8:58 PM


Troll alert
Troll

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Dredge, posted 08-15-2022 8:58 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 674 of 1429 (896643)
08-15-2022 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by nwr
08-14-2022 7:29 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Here's one dictionary definition of "know":
to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty
nwr writes:
That's a poor definition of "know".
To a scientist it must look like a terrible definition!
I mean, words like "fact ... truth ... certainty" are a world away from the scientific definition of "know" - which is something like "I"m pretty sure I know" or "I think I know" or "according to my theory".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by nwr, posted 08-14-2022 7:29 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by nwr, posted 08-15-2022 11:56 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 676 by dwise1, posted 08-15-2022 11:57 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 680 by Percy, posted 08-16-2022 11:17 AM Dredge has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 675 of 1429 (896644)
08-15-2022 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 674 by Dredge
08-15-2022 11:44 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
I mean, words like "fact ... truth ... certainty" are a world away from the scientific definition of "know"
I doubt that there is a scientific definition of "know".
Scientists do talk of facts and truth. The facts are their data, not their theories. But they can know their theories in the sense of being very familiar with them. Ordinary language mostly isn't based on dictionary definitions.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by Dredge, posted 08-15-2022 11:44 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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