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Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 328 (896034)
07-29-2022 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
07-28-2022 2:06 PM


Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
I will try and study what many sources say Fiat Money is and what it means. Of course I will
compare what I learn to what I already adopted from the many financial apologists (economists and wannabe economists) and investors which attempt to convince me of their wisdom.
This is as you all requested in that it is either in my own words or in words which I see no reason to disagree with...from others.
Fiat money system means that a currency is no longer backed by physical assets, such as gold or silver. This means that USD 100.00, JPY 1,000, or other currencies are not equal to a certain weight of gold. Instead, the value of each currency derives from the reputation of a national central bank and economic stability.
I believe that I understand the following facts:
  • The Western Fiat Money System is by necessity a debt-based monetary system.
  • Over 50% of all dollars were essentially created since 2020.
  • Gold has always been stable. Throughout History since even before the United States, 1 oz of gold could purchase a mans suit--be it a suit of Roman Armor for a Centurion, a Zoot Suit from the 1920's, or a suit that a man of means would buy today. ($1600.00+)
    Fiat currencies, as my quote suggests, are valued "from the reputation of a national central bank and economic stability."
    Schiff, Gammon, and others whom I listen to (Rick Rule, Robert Kiyosaki, Ray Dalio, and many of the guests on Daniella Cambone, who works for Stansberry Research, an investment firm) all unanimously agree that the US Dollar has a limited time left where it holds its value relative to US commercial needs. They all agree that the Federal Reserve really can't and won't fight inflation but is trying to avoid a Depression. Jar always said that the bill would get paid and that people would get what they want (and voted for). What irritates me about jar and the rest of you Democrats, in particular, is that you don't seem to want to fight this.
    The US has always had an advantage by the dollar being the primary Global Reserve Currency which has led the basket of currencies formed at Bretton Wood. Essentially, I have been told that the US is primarily a consumer and that we produce very little with which to exchange goods for goods. We exchange dollars for goods and simply inflate the currency in order to pay for what we consume. Now, as this abstract bill is getting paid, we find ourselves over 30 trillion in national debt. The other nations buy our US T-Bills because of our previous reputation for always settling our debts. China and Japan are two of the biggest purchasers of Dollar denominated financial assets.
  • What would happen if China lost trust in or no longer desired to finance our debt?
  • Why don't globalists care?
    Finally...what is the fate of the US Middle class who is left holding the bag?
    And why am I a "selfish little prick" for suggesting that we all will lose 25% of our asset values by paying this bill, which will only be the death of one global financial superpower and the birth of another?
  • Why are the BRIC nations creating a new global reserve system backed by precious metals and rare earth minerals? They seem to know that a debt-based fiat system cant dominate forever.
    After World War II, nations agreed to back their currencies based on the US Dollar backed by gold as an underlying. The system is also known as the Bretton-Woods system. However, after 1973 the system collapsed mainly due to the imbalance between the massive supply of the US Dollar against the gold reserve. Therefore, the fiat currency system is the most suitable alternative in the modern economy to smooth transactions worldwide. However, like previous currency systems, fiat currency has some advantages and drawbacks.
    The advantages of the fiat currency system
    Fiat money is a sound currency if it can do the functions that a monetary unit must perform in a nation’s economy: holding value, providing a numerical account, and enabling exchange. It also has excellent seigniorage, which means it is more cost-effective to generate than a commodity-linked currency.
    The country’s central bank plays a prominent role in the fiat currency system. Because fiat currency is not a scarce or stable resource like gold, central banks have far more control over its supply, allowing them to manipulate economic variables like credit supply, liquidity, interest rates, and money velocity. The Federal Reserve in the United States, for example, has a dual duty to keep unemployment and inflation low.

    The drawbacks of the fiat currency system
    In general, economists believe that excessive money supply increase causes high rates of inflation and hyperinflation. This is one of the disadvantages of the fiat currency system that enables manipulating the growth of the money supply in the economy. As such, the stable value of a currency will depend on sound national monetary policies and the central bank's reputation. There is more potential for creating a financial crisis with fiat money due to its unlimited supply. Alternatively, a currency tied to gold, for example, is generally more stable than fiat money because of the limited supply of gold.
    So without watching my speculative convincing videos, explain why you see no problem with what the Federal Reserve is doing.

    Edited by Phat, : corrected spelling


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by Percy, posted 07-28-2022 2:06 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 52 by nwr, posted 07-29-2022 5:16 PM Phat has replied
     Message 53 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-30-2022 11:29 AM Phat has replied
     Message 57 by Percy, posted 07-30-2022 8:03 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 54 of 328 (896054)
    07-30-2022 2:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 53 by Tanypteryx
    07-30-2022 11:29 AM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    Why on earth would I want higher taxes for the middle class, of which I (think I) am at the lower end? As for the wealthy, I am on the side that thinks that anyone making over $200,000.00 a year needs no tax cut.
    Taxes make no sense anymore. Why do they bother taxing people when they give us stimulus checks? It would seem that one cancels out the other.
    And I might ask why debt is in any way good when it seems mathematically impossible to pay back?
    How would you suggest we fight this? Spend more, borrow more, or save more?
    Honestly I think we are checkmated. There is no way to pay it back.
    I fear that this whole debt thing won't end pleasantly.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-30-2022 11:29 AM Tanypteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-30-2022 7:09 PM Phat has replied
     Message 58 by Percy, posted 07-30-2022 8:08 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 60 by ringo, posted 07-31-2022 10:43 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 55 of 328 (896061)
    07-30-2022 4:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 52 by nwr
    07-29-2022 5:16 PM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    Wasn't it really backed by people's whims and fads about jewelry? If people had stopped valuing gold and silver for jewelry, then the coins would have been worthless.
    Not as long as the Central Banks and foreign governments hold 20% of all gold ever produced as their backing. Dollars can be "whims" of the people. Gold IS money. period.
    And furthermore, what if the people disagree on what is valuable globally?
    One final thought along religious dogmatic lines:
    If the value is decided by the people, the people thus back the money. Which money?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by nwr, posted 07-29-2022 5:16 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by Percy, posted 07-30-2022 8:49 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 61 of 328 (896138)
    08-01-2022 11:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 56 by Tanypteryx
    07-30-2022 7:09 PM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    Thinking about what you said in your post a bit deeper.
    The main people whom I listen to are quite wealthy themselves. They don't need the income from a YouTube video or to sell me any gold. Then it struck me. They all claim to be massive buyers of Gold, Uranium, Lithium, and Rare Earth Mineral stocks. ALL of them!
    Let me see if I can find their net worths:
  • Peter Schiff-70 million dollars, according to Wiki.
  • Rick Rule- 23 million dollars, according to Wiki.
  • Robert Kiyosaki-100 million dollars, according to Wiki.
  • George Gammon, 16 million dollars according to Wiki.
  • Ray Dalio-16 billion dollars, according to Wiki.
    Thus, what they have in common is that they are trying to convince people to abandon the dollar. If what they say is true and the dollar hyperinflates or collapses, their investments in precious metals will indeed skyrocket.
    So what I meant when I said that *you Democrats* won't fight this, I think what I was implying is that you are on the side that wants to save the dollar and continue suppressing speculation in the hard assets.
    I'm beginning to question my own sanity, after all. I am nearly poor. I am indeed being conned by these people, none of whom are religious to my knowledge.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-30-2022 7:09 PM Tanypteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 62 by Percy, posted 08-01-2022 1:43 PM Phat has replied
     Message 63 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-01-2022 1:59 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 64 of 328 (896142)
    08-01-2022 3:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
    08-01-2022 1:43 PM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    Percy writes:
    When you say you're being conned, are you serious? Are you telling us that you finally believe what we've been telling you for at least a couple of years? If that's what you're saying then I, for one, don't believe you. You're a backslider, and you'll be listening to all the YouTube dingbats again by next week.
    I'm not yet convinced that they are wrong and you are right. I'm just now more skeptical as to whether they have my interests at heart (they likely don't) and whether their information is at least partly true. (it seems like it is). The fact that you see nothing threatening to the US dollar-based global system is in my opinion walking with blinders on. The main reason it stays on top is that there is nothing yet any better.
    In these matters, you often check out the source without bothering to review the content.
    I found out that the source is wealthy people. They have a vested interest in people fleeing from stocks and buying the things they supposedly buy. They can then sell for a massive profit.
    An interesting side note:
    Mitt Romney ($400.00 million net worth) and Warren Buffet (Billions of net worth)
    Both advocate buying farmland and Apartment buildings. Sorta out of my league, but it's interesting how these wealthy men don't advocate precious metals.
    You're a backslider, and you'll be listening to all the YouTube dingbats again by next week.
    Thanks for your vote of confidence. I am now interested in finding proof that what these wealthy podcasters preach is fake news. You have not yet convinced me.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 62 by Percy, posted 08-01-2022 1:43 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 67 by nwr, posted 08-01-2022 3:38 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 68 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-01-2022 5:44 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 72 by Percy, posted 08-02-2022 9:40 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 65 of 328 (896143)
    08-01-2022 3:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by Tanypteryx
    08-01-2022 1:59 PM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    What currency will they take in exchange for their precious metals?
    Likely the strongest contender or contenders after the dollar is dethroned. Or perhaps the dollar will simply be redesigned as a digital currency and revalued.
    My contention is that there will be a reset of some sort. A major one.
    Explaining to you how this will play out is one of my goals. I just need to understand it better myself.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-01-2022 1:59 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by Percy, posted 08-02-2022 9:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 66 of 328 (896144)
    08-01-2022 3:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by Tanypteryx
    08-01-2022 1:59 PM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    When you say "continue suppressing speculation", how is that being done? As far as I can tell, anyone with enough wealth can speculate all they want.
    I think it all started when Nixon decoupled the dollar from gold in 1971.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-01-2022 1:59 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by Percy, posted 08-02-2022 9:45 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-02-2022 12:09 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 77 of 328 (896177)
    08-02-2022 2:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 69 by dwise1
    08-01-2022 6:32 PM


    without a video
    Thanks for sharing a slice of family.
    My Father grew up poor on a farm with brothers and sisters crammed into a small house.
    He had a strong work ethic and worked in a Dairy before being drafted into WWII.
    Meanwhile, his brother came out west to Denver and became a General Contractor.
    After the war, Dad joined him and became a General Contractor also. One advantage in that profession is that you can live in a small house, build your own new one, and move in...repeating the process if needed. Dad never believed in credit cards and told us to save for what we wanted and to never borrow. Honestly, I had many opportunities in life which I squandered. I am nearly poor, though as you guys sanctimoniously pointed out, I inherited a condo. My sister tells me I never knew tough times and she is right. At my age, I would likely die on the street if I had no job and if Social Security somehow failed or was hijacked by the Republicans.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 69 by dwise1, posted 08-01-2022 6:32 PM dwise1 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 80 by Theodoric, posted 08-02-2022 3:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 78 of 328 (896178)
    08-02-2022 2:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
    08-02-2022 12:09 PM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    The key part of his speech mentions defending the dollar against the speculators. Back then, France was one such speculator, demanding to be paid in Gold rather than Dollars. Nixon made it impossible. Nowadays, the government still defends the dollar aginst speculators.
    The fact is, the US Dollar and Gold are competitors. And the Dollar has been defended successfully so far.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-02-2022 12:09 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 08-02-2022 3:38 PM Phat has replied
     Message 81 by Percy, posted 08-02-2022 8:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 82 of 328 (896194)
    08-02-2022 10:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 79 by Theodoric
    08-02-2022 3:38 PM


    Gold And The Dollar
    I will readily admit that I don't understand everything. I also admit that I get my information from Gold Dealers as well as FederalReserve.gov.
    Thus, I read a varieety of sources in order to research the questions we raise.
    This was from Investopedia
    quote
    Will the U.S. Dollar Collapse?
    There are some conceivable scenarios that might cause a sudden crisis for the dollar. The most realistic is the dual-threat of high inflation and high debt, a scenario in which rising consumer prices force the Fed to sharply raise interest rates. Much of the national debt is made up of relatively short-term instruments, so a spike in rates would act like an adjustable-rate mortgage after the teaser period ends. If the U.S. government struggled to afford its interest payments, foreign creditors could dump the dollar and trigger a collapse.
    If the U.S. entered a steep recession or depression without dragging the rest of the world with it, users might leave the dollar. Another option would involve some major power, such as China or a post-European Union Germany, reinstating a commodity-based standard and monopolizing the reserve currency space. However, even in these scenarios, it is not clear that the dollar necessarily would collapse.
    The collapse of the dollar remains highly unlikely. Of the preconditions necessary to force a collapse, only the prospect of higher inflation appears reasonable.

    Thus, the dollar would be in direct competion with commodities besides Gold, if inflation lasts longer than has been predicted.
    Note the behavior of inflation during yhe 70's through 1980:
    It spiked three times.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 08-02-2022 3:38 PM Theodoric has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 83 of 328 (896220)
    08-03-2022 10:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 81 by Percy
    08-02-2022 8:15 PM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    Percy writes:
    It's obvious you're saying these things not because your knowledge and understanding tells you they're true. You're saying them because that's what your YouTube nitwits are saying, or at least what you think they're saying.
    OK. The Dollar (and later all currencies) were decoupled from Gold. Nixon said that he was defending the dollar against the speculators, but it now seems to me that Gold itself is being defended manipulated against speculators. It seems scandalous to me for one primary reason. If a man has gold, and the value was allowed unfettered market speculation, he could profit from inflated currencies and also hide his true assets from government oversight...which to me is fair. This whole idea of digital money (an upcoming reality) gives the government(s) full authority over all money anywhere and everywhere. And I don't trust governments nor do I feel they should have that much authority over money. Having said all this, I realize that Money competes with money. My gripe has now been redefined as private money vs public money. And eventual global control over where any and all of the money is kept at any given moment.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 81 by Percy, posted 08-02-2022 8:15 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 11:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 85 by nwr, posted 08-03-2022 11:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 86 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-03-2022 11:30 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 11:50 AM Phat has replied
     Message 100 by Percy, posted 08-03-2022 6:31 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 88 of 328 (896237)
    08-03-2022 1:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
    08-03-2022 11:50 AM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    ringo writes:
    We know you hate the public.
    Oh stop! What I hate is overarching government control over costly things that they have no consensual knowledge about. Take Green New Deals vs Oil and Gas, for instance. It is true that we need to prepare for eventual reliance on Green energy such as solar, wind, and errr... I dunno...geothermal? It's true we will eventually have to find ways to desalinate ocean water as our population is growing and Lake Mead and Lake Powell are drying up. And it is true that within 50 years we will be able to fully rely on these clean and/or renewable sources. But not tomorrow. We need oil and gas in the meantime. The average Joe can't afford higher and higher taxes while at the same time waiting to afford an electric car while he fills up on 6.00 a gallon++ gasoline.
    My government should not have the right to decide what's best for me while controlling my future. What do they expect the middle class to do? Give more up to help the poor become equal to us in wealth (which by necessity decreases our wealth) and take the city bus to work in the meantime?
    We know you side with the private money of the rich rather than the public money of the poor.
    Again, all that I side with is less government control vs more government control. Before you know it, we as a society will have blundered into a one-world government and mandatory compliance. Heck, China even increased the number of kids the population is allowed to have. While my country is getting older and grayer and needs social security, the rich are spending up all the surplus and pushing me...and the public...into a collective poor farm. How do you like them apples?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 11:50 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 89 by nwr, posted 08-03-2022 1:42 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 90 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-03-2022 2:20 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 2:39 PM Phat has replied
     Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 3:29 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 93 of 328 (896250)
    08-03-2022 4:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
    08-03-2022 3:29 PM


    Ringo needs to define the Side Of The Public
    Kindly enlighten me...briefly...on this Agenda Of The Rich and contrast it with The Agenda Of The Public.
    I already know that one of the agendas of *your* idea for the public is to sharply put the bill in the mailbox of everyone earning roughly $30,000.00 a year up to..oh Im guessing $200,000 a year. Is that about the parameter with which you define Middle Class?
    And by the way, I reluctantly accept that idea though I don't want the government to turn the middle and lower classes into one giant class. As I said earlier, I don't want to be forced to give up my car and take buses everywhere.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 3:29 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 94 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 5:09 PM Phat has replied
     Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 5:38 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 95 of 328 (896253)
    08-03-2022 5:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 91 by Theodoric
    08-03-2022 2:39 PM


    Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
    You are the poster child of amoral Christians.
    I may come across as a bit of an a**hole when I rant here, but let me ask you what you think a "moral" Christian would or should do? Ringo seems to push the point that nobody is even a Christian unless they give it all up. In which case, 95% of Christians are amoral. And yet I've never heard any of the humanists here advocate giving it all up.
    Keep in mind that i'm just ranting here. It is an ongoing argument against the inevitability of getting older and poorer and feeling as if society is pushing me aside and claiming I am rich simply because I own a small condo in a retirement community.
    I get the noble altruism of many liberals. They are against the Republicans for trying to preserve hoard wealth. And I will admit that I want to hold on to what I have as I don't trust social security (though im glad we even have it) and I have under 5 years left to work. A personal question for all of you. How generous are you to the cause?
    I realize none of you are rich (even if you do own a home)

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 2:39 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 5:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 99 by nwr, posted 08-03-2022 6:00 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 96 of 328 (896254)
    08-03-2022 5:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
    08-03-2022 5:09 PM


    Redefining The American Dream
    If you're "forced" to give up your car, it will be because of global warming.
    In my mind, if gas hits $8.00 a gallon, I won't be driving much of anywhere...except maybe to doctor appointments and to go get groceries.
    My parents exemplified the historic American Dream. They owned a house and two cars.
    These days, One could nearly say that the rich hijacked the dream my parents had.
    Perhaps your idea of an American/Canadian Dream is nothing more than (that)everyone has a roof over their head, enough food, and basic needs such as medical, dental, and clothing being affordable.But even then, the need is global. By the time the public includes everyone in the world and guarantees no hunger or homelessness, we all will ave a very spartan living standard. To me that is not progress, but it is empathy, I suppose.
    But then we still have the thieves. They will always take what they can get and wont care who they hurt or whose stuff it is. I suppose Jesus would not want us fighting them or locking them up. Comments?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 94 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 5:09 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2022 9:03 PM Phat has replied
     Message 107 by ringo, posted 08-04-2022 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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