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Topic: Testing The Financial Apologists
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 91 of 684 (896240)
08-03-2022 2:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
08-03-2022 1:21 PM
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Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
This is not true.
higher and higher taxes while at the same time waiting to afford an electric car while he fills up on 6.00 a gallon++ gasoline. Give more up to help the poor become equal to us in wealth (which by necessity decreases our wealth) and take the city bus to work in the meantime?
Keeping people poor does not help you. It actually hurts you and costs all of us more. You are the poster child of amoral christians.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 1:21 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 95 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 5:10 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 708 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 92 of 684 (896248)
08-03-2022 3:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
08-03-2022 1:21 PM
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Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes: What I hate is overarching government control ...
The government IS the public.
Phat writes: My government should not have the right to decide what's best for me while controlling my future.
Of course it should. Society means putting your own selfish desires in second place, behind the greater good.
Phat writes: Before you know it, we as a society will have blundered into a one-world government...
You can keep that apocalyptic nonsense to yourself.
Phat writes: and mandatory compliance.
You have mandatory compliance now.
Phat writes: While my country is getting older and grayer and needs social security, the rich are spending up all the surplus and pushing me...and the public...into a collective poor farm. How do you like them apples?
You're the one who is pushing the agenda of the rich. Get on the side of the public if you want me to have sympathy for your plight.
"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 1:21 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 4:51 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18691 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 93 of 684 (896250)
08-03-2022 4:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
08-03-2022 3:29 PM
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Ringo needs to define the Side Of The Public
Kindly enlighten me...briefly...on this Agenda Of The Rich and contrast it with The Agenda Of The Public. I already know that one of the agendas of *your* idea for the public is to sharply put the bill in the mailbox of everyone earning roughly $30,000.00 a year up to..oh Im guessing $200,000 a year. Is that about the parameter with which you define Middle Class? And by the way, I reluctantly accept that idea though I don't want the government to turn the middle and lower classes into one giant class. As I said earlier, I don't want to be forced to give up my car and take buses everywhere.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 3:29 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 708 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 94 of 684 (896252)
08-03-2022 5:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
08-03-2022 4:51 PM
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Re: Ringo needs to define the Side Of The Public
Phat writes: Kindly enlighten me...briefly...on this Agenda Of The Rich and contrast it with The Agenda Of The Public.
The agenda of the rich is to get richer. The agenda of the public is to make a better world for their children.
Phat writes: I already know that one of the agendas of *your* idea for the public is to sharply put the bill in the mailbox of everyone earning roughly $30,000.00 a year...
I made a little over $12,000 Canadian last year. Should i shed tears for the ones who make $30,000? (The good news is that i spent less than I made last month.)
Phat writes: And by the way, I reluctantly accept that idea though I don't want the government to turn the middle and lower classes into one giant class.
Why not?
Phat writes: As I said earlier, I don't want to be forced to give up my car and take buses everywhere.
If you're "forced" to give up your car, it will be because of global warming.
"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 4:51 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 5:21 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18691 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 95 of 684 (896253)
08-03-2022 5:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 91 by Theodoric
08-03-2022 2:39 PM
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Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
You are the poster child of amoral Christians. I may come across as a bit of an a**hole when I rant here, but let me ask you what you think a "moral" Christian would or should do? Ringo seems to push the point that nobody is even a Christian unless they give it all up. In which case, 95% of Christians are amoral. And yet I've never heard any of the humanists here advocate giving it all up. Keep in mind that i'm just ranting here. It is an ongoing argument against the inevitability of getting older and poorer and feeling as if society is pushing me aside and claiming I am rich simply because I own a small condo in a retirement community. I get the noble altruism of many liberals. They are against the Republicans for trying to preserve hoard wealth. And I will admit that I want to hold on to what I have as I don't trust social security (though im glad we even have it) and I have under 5 years left to work. A personal question for all of you. How generous are you to the cause? I realize none of you are rich (even if you do own a home)
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 2:39 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 5:44 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 99 by nwr, posted 08-03-2022 6:00 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18691 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 96 of 684 (896254)
08-03-2022 5:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
08-03-2022 5:09 PM
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Redefining The American Dream
If you're "forced" to give up your car, it will be because of global warming.
In my mind, if gas hits $8.00 a gallon, I won't be driving much of anywhere...except maybe to doctor appointments and to go get groceries. My parents exemplified the historic American Dream. They owned a house and two cars. These days, One could nearly say that the rich hijacked the dream my parents had. Perhaps your idea of an American/Canadian Dream is nothing more than (that)everyone has a roof over their head, enough food, and basic needs such as medical, dental, and clothing being affordable.But even then, the need is global. By the time the public includes everyone in the world and guarantees no hunger or homelessness, we all will ave a very spartan living standard. To me that is not progress, but it is empathy, I suppose.  But then we still have the thieves. They will always take what they can get and wont care who they hurt or whose stuff it is. I suppose Jesus would not want us fighting them or locking them up. Comments?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 5:09 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2022 9:03 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 107 by ringo, posted 08-04-2022 11:52 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 97 of 684 (896257)
08-03-2022 5:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
08-03-2022 4:51 PM
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Re: Ringo needs to define the Side Of The Public
How about responding to my questions on your previous nutjob post.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 4:51 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 104 by Phat, posted 08-04-2022 12:28 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 98 of 684 (896258)
08-03-2022 5:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
08-03-2022 5:10 PM
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Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Your arguments are all lies or whining of a petulant, entitled asshole.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 5:10 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6487 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 99 of 684 (896259)
08-03-2022 6:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
08-03-2022 5:10 PM
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Christianity and morals
Ringo seems to push the point that nobody is even a Christian unless they give it all up. You are likely still misunderstanding ringo.
It is an ongoing argument against the inevitability of getting older and poorer and feeling as if society is pushing me aside and claiming I am rich simply because I own a small condo in a retirement community. I don't have a problem with your owning a condo. My concern is your indifference to people in need. On my view of Christianity, one of the central principles is that you love your neighbor. And I see you failing at that.
A personal question for all of you. How generous are you to the cause? I don't know how to measure that. I do make significant charitable contributions, and some of that goes to a local charity that assists people in need. But I am not giving so much that I need to worry about whether I can afford to buy food.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 5:10 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 23072 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 6.4
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Message 100 of 684 (896260)
08-03-2022 6:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
08-03-2022 10:54 AM
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Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
You mind is still polluted with all the nonsense from the YouTube ninnies. There's no point talking to you. If anyone's interested, here's the Nixon speech about international money speculators and going off the gold standard that he made on August 15, 1971: Address to the Nation Outlining a New Economic Policy: "The Challenge of Peace." --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 10:54 AM | | Phat has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 11:04 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8685 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 6.1
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Message 101 of 684 (896265)
08-03-2022 9:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
08-03-2022 5:21 PM
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Re: Redefining The American Dream
Phat, I feel you resent not being more financially secure than you think you deserve. Me too. I should be Warren Buffett except for, reasons. The politics you talk are not the best, IMHO, and your very understanding of that politics seems misinformed. On top of that all these inquiring minds want to know from you your feelings on doing as that jesus guy said (supposedly). His requirement you chuck it all, sell everything and go join a convent. Phat, I can see you’re under some stress thinking and pondering these hard questions. I’m concerned for your psyche, my friend. I want to offer you some relief, if and/or when you think you may need it. I’ll help you into atheism. You won’t have to give up anything and you get to give, or not, as your spirit moves. No stern obligations, no selling the condo, no silent convent. And you will not be jeopardizing any afterlife because you’ll know there isn’t one. With considerable enlightenment from your family here you would make a fine humanist, Phat. If you could lean a bit more to the left, by a bunch, that would be great. Ok, we can work on that. Anyway, Phat, when you’re ready I have your certificate, membership card, decoder ring (iPhone or Android) and two (2) tickets to our annual atheist baby-eating gala here in Phoenix in November. I’m here for you, bro. Just let me know.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 5:21 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 102 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 9:36 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18691 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 102 of 684 (896266)
08-03-2022 9:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by AZPaul3
08-03-2022 9:03 PM
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Re: Redefining The American Dream
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2022 9:03 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 103 of 684 (896267)
08-03-2022 11:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 100 by Percy
08-03-2022 6:31 PM
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Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
I am aware of Nixon's speech. My point to Phat is whether he actually listened to the speech and does he actually know what Nixon said. Edited by Theodoric, .
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by Percy, posted 08-03-2022 6:31 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18691 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 104 of 684 (896269)
08-04-2022 12:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 97 by Theodoric
08-03-2022 5:38 PM
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Re: Ringo needs to define the Side Of The Public
Theodoric writes: How about responding to my questions... Ok. Nixon said that he was defending the dollar against the speculators. Using Percy's source of Nixon's initial speech, the direct quote is Message 100 But it now seems to me that Gold itself is being defended against speculators. The dollar took its place,(so they think) and we simply can't have any other country profiting more than ourselves. (which alas, China will eventually do. All of those "ghost cities" will fill up with middle-class Chinese while our aging bunch dies off!
Source and relevance. I don't have facts offhand to back this up except my belief that Gold is and was the only real money that is not debt-based and thus someone else's obligation. Note how much Gold is held by countries:
quote
Countries With the Largest Gold Reserves in the World
1. United States: 8,133.5 tons. During the height of the Bretton Woods system of international exchange, when the U.S. offered to house and protect other countries' gold in exchange for dollars, it was reported that between 90% and 95% of the entire world's gold reserves lay in American vaults.3 Decades later, the U.S. still holds the most. Gold makes up over 75% of its foreign reserves. 2. Germany: 3,359.1 tons. Germany keeps its gold reserves in the Deutsche Bundesbank in Frankfurt am Main, the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank branch in New York, and the Bank of England in London.
3. Italy: 2,451.8 tons. The eurozone crisis led some to call for Italy's government to sell some of its gold reserves to raise funds, but no such plans ever materialized. 4. France: 2,436.5 tons. Former President of France Charles de Gaulle was partially responsible for the collapse of the Bretton Woods system when he called the U.S. bluff and began actually trading dollars in for gold from the Fort Knox reserves. Then-president Richard Nixon, who knew that the fixed rate of $35 per gold ounce was too low, eventually was forced to take the U.S. off the gold standard, ending the dollar's automatic convertibility into gold. 5. Russia: 2,301.6 tons. Russia overtook China as the fifth-largest holder of the yellow metal in 2018.5 Russia's increase in its gold stores was seen as an attempt to diversify beyond American investments. Russia mainly sold U.S. Treasury bonds to buy the bullion. The U.S. continues to safeguard gold belonging to other countries. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York is the custodian of gold owned by foreign governments, foreign central banks, and official international organizations.
If a man has gold, and the value was allowed unfettered market speculation, he could profit from inflated currencies and also hide his true assets from government oversight.
Theo writes: Explain how. Because Gold holds its value much better than either currencies or blockchains. This is true of hard assets like commodities in general, though Gold is the backbone of Central Bank backing.
To what end? If one buys small quantities of precious metals they slip below the radar and are not liable for capital gains. And I don't trust governments nor do I feel they should have that much authority over money.
Theo writes: Why? Alternative? Because if the government continues creating money out of thin air, they can't expect the public to pay it back. It simply is as unfair as a bail-in would be. Do you know the theory behind bail-ins?
Phat writes: I realize that Money competes with money.
Explain what this means. Relevance? It6 means that not all money is "public money". Some of it is (or should be) private money. Money that is not subject to government control in order to bail out the system through bailing in the assets of banks.
Phat writes: And eventual global control over where any and all of the money is kept at any given moment.
Theo writes: How? By who? The big them? Let's just say I'm paranoid of being controlled. I'm honest apart from the fact that some things should be kept private and not part of a giant pool of money controlled by governments. Another thing that people don't seem to believe is that Gold still backs fiat money indirectly and will do so until the banks get rid of their holdings...in which case it will become a relic of the past. A 5000-year track record is nothing to dismiss so lightly, however. Edited by Phat, : corrected a sentence I said...in context
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 5:38 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 106 by Theodoric, posted 08-04-2022 10:42 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 108 by ringo, posted 08-04-2022 12:01 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9609 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.6
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Message 105 of 684 (896270)
08-04-2022 2:49 AM
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You guys place a high value on the 'pursuit of happiness' but you're really bad at creating the circumstances that promote it. Stuff like equality, community, low corruption, trust of government, health etc "A central takeaway from nine years of happiness reports is that a wealthier country is not always a happier country. In the U.S., “we are living with such incredibly frayed social trust and bad vibes and addictions and so many other things, and still [people say] ‘Don't tax me,’ ‘Don’t tax the rich,’” Jeffrey Sachs, an economist at Columbia University and an editor of the report, told me. “This is part of our politics that I think is all wrong, and that I think is what puts us well behind countries that are not quite as rich as the United States but in my view are much more balanced in their lives.” We’re Learning the Wrong Lessons From the World’s Happiest Countries
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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