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Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 59 of 328 (896072)
07-30-2022 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
07-30-2022 4:02 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
d
Phat writes:
Wasn't it really backed by people's whims and fads about jewelry? If people had stopped valuing gold and silver for jewelry, then the coins would have been worthless.
Not as long as the Central Banks and foreign governments hold 20% of all gold ever produced as their backing. Dollars can be "whims" of the people. Gold IS money. period.
This makes no sense, and you clearly didn't understand nwr's point, which was that value is in the eye of the beholder. When Europeans first arrived in the New World they found that Native Americans assigned a high value to cheap glass beads and that they could trade beads for valuable furs and such. Once the Indians discovered that Europeans had an endless supply of glass beads their value dropped immensely.
As long as gold is rare it will have a high value. If a mountain made of gold were discovered in Nepal the value would drop precipitously.
And furthermore, what if the people disagree on what is valuable globally?
They do disagree. The stock market is where people who disagree on value buy and sell. Back in 1990 someone thought this painting was worth $82.5 million, but what do you think:
You like videos so much, watch this one:

One final thought along religious dogmatic lines:

If the value is decided by the people, the people thus back the money. Which money?
As Confederate fortunes began to wane the value of Confederate money declined (meaning the cost of goods rose, i.e., inflation) until finally no one would accept it. The defeated South must have had to rely on the barter system for a while after the end of the war.
But at the beginning of the war Confederate money was based on a promise to pay six months after the war's end.
In other words, money is worth what people think it's worth, and people can hold different opinions about that value. For example, as the Civil War came to a close there must have been some Confederates who refused to believe the South was going to lose and who bought up Confederate bonds that others were selling at a large discount.
These are simple Economics 101 concepts, not rocket science, and you just don't get any of it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 07-30-2022 4:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 62 of 328 (896140)
08-01-2022 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
08-01-2022 11:41 AM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes:
So what I meant when I said that *you Democrats* won't fight this, I think what I was implying is that you are on the side that wants to save the dollar and continue suppressing speculation in the hard assets.
Again, not a Democrat, but responding to this anyway, there is no "side" that wants to save the dollar and suppress speculation. Naturally we all want a strong dollar, but the Democrats don't see the dollar as threatened. Since it's not threatened they don't think it needs saving. It would be like lifeguards walking up to people sunning themselves on the beach and trying to save them.
And there is no "side" trying to suppress speculation in precious commodities.
What you're talking about is pure fiction. It's just tall tales that your YouTube yahoos have told you.
I'm beginning to question my own sanity, after all. I am nearly poor. I am indeed being conned by these people, none of whom are religious to my knowledge.
When you say you're being conned, are you serious? Are you telling us that you finally believe what we've been telling you for at least a couple years? If that's what you're saying then I, for one, don't believe you. You're a backslider, and you'll be listening to all the YouTube dingbats again by next week.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 08-01-2022 11:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 08-01-2022 3:18 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 72 of 328 (896159)
08-02-2022 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
08-01-2022 3:18 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes:
I'm not yet convinced that they are wrong and you are right.
That's only because my YouTube video isn't out yet.
I'm just now more skeptical as to whether they have my interests at heart (they likely don't) and whether their information is at least partly true. (it seems like it is).
I called you a backslider, and you proved it within a single message. Just previously in Message 61 you said, "I am indeed being conned," and now just one message later you're saying you're merely more skeptical.
I think your brain has been ground into sawdust over the years and now is just leading you around in whatever random direction it falls into on any given day. You've retained your ability to read and write but not to sift through evidence and arrive at reasonable conclusions.
The fact that you see nothing threatening to the US dollar-based global system is in my opinion walking with blinders on. The main reason it stays on top is that there is nothing yet any better.
You're only saying this because your YouTube nutjobs are telling you this. When pressed to explain how the US dollar is threatened you either say nothing or become incoherent or absurd.
In these matters, you often check out the source without bothering to review the content.
I do not "often check out the source," especially YouTube videos. How many times do we have to tell you to make your points in your own words? It must be approaching a hundred times by now. From now on, every time you post a YouTube video where you should be making an argument I'm going to respond with a Looney Tunes video.
I found out that the source is wealthy people. They have a vested interest in people fleeing from stocks and buying the things they supposedly buy. They can then sell for a massive profit.
This is idiocy. Many wealthy people own stocks and have a vested interest in people not fleeing them. In fact, most wealthy people have a diversified portfolio and don't want anyone fleeing any of their investment vehicles.
An interesting side note:
Mitt Romney ($400.00 million net worth) and Warren Buffet (Billions of net worth)
Both advocate buying farmland and Apartment buildings. Sorta out of my league, but it's interesting how these wealthy men don't advocate precious metals.
Mitt Romney's secret to success is his father's advice: "Son, you were born rich. Don't blow it." I don't know that I'd listen to Romney. I suspect much of the Romney success story with Bain Capital is propaganda.
But Buffet is worth listening to. It's surprising that you mention an actual competent investor.
You're a backslider, and you'll be listening to all the YouTube dingbats again by next week.
Thanks for your vote of confidence.
You should be thanking me instead for the infusion of reality.
I am now interested in finding proof that what these wealthy podcasters preach is fake news. You have not yet convinced me.
You're working at it backwards. Here are two approaches to judging what is likely true:
  1. Trust information until shown unreliable.
  2. Be skeptical of information until shown reliable.
Which approach do you think is best? Which approach are you using? See the problem?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 08-01-2022 3:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 73 of 328 (896160)
08-02-2022 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
08-01-2022 3:30 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes:
Likely the strongest contender or contenders after the dollar is dethroned. Or perhaps the dollar will simply be redesigned as a digital currency and revalued.

My contention is that there will be a reset of some sort. A major one.

Explaining to you how this will play out is one of my goals. I just need to understand it better myself.
Why in the name of all that is rational are you making pronouncements about things that by your own admission you don't yourself yet understand?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 08-01-2022 3:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 74 of 328 (896161)
08-02-2022 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
08-01-2022 3:38 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes:
When you say "continue suppressing speculation", how is that being done? As far as I can tell, anyone with enough wealth can speculate all they want.
I think it all started when Nixon decoupled the dollar from gold in 1971.
What was it in your addled brain that led you to believe this is a coherent answer?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 08-01-2022 3:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 75 of 328 (896162)
08-02-2022 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by dwise1
08-01-2022 7:21 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
If you bought real estate, say, five years ago then your timing was great and you've probably seen an astronomical increase in value amounting to more than 25% a year. But we bought our house over 30 years ago, and while the current value seems amazing to us, it only amounts to a 2.4% annualized return.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by dwise1, posted 08-01-2022 7:21 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 81 of 328 (896190)
08-02-2022 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
08-02-2022 2:49 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes:
he key part of his speech mentions defending the dollar against the speculators.
I assume you're talking about Nixon, but this is the first time you've even used the word speech in this thread. What speech? And why do you think something Nixon said a half century ago is relevant?
Back then, France was one such speculator, demanding to be paid in Gold rather than Dollars.
France is the "speculators?" Seriously?
You have no idea what happened back then, do you? Without looking it up and just going by what I remember from having lived through it, here's my recollection. Back then many countries backed their currencies with precious commodities like gold and silver. The United States was one of those countries. We set the value of the dollar to be $32/ounce of gold. US citizens were not allowed to own gold, but countries who held US dollars could, if they chose, redeem their dollars for gold from Fort Knox. By convention countries didn't request redemption of many dollars in gold, but there was no international law enforcing that.
Because backing currencies with precious commodities is impractical for modern economies, it was inevitable it would eventually break down. The price of gold on the open market rose far above $32/ounce, and France began redeeming its dollars in gold, thereby making a big profit. France was not speculating - they were simply taking advantage of the arrogance and pigheadedness of the US government in thinking that they could by sheer stubbornness protect a global financial system that was falling apart. The US let a considerable amount of gold leave Fort Knox before refusing to redeem any more dollars with gold. All countries soon stopped backing their currencies with precious commodities and within a short time began letting them float in value relative to each other.
Like I said, this is from memory. Everyone's invited to make corrections.
Nixon made it impossible. Nowadays, the government still defends the dollar against speculators.
The global financial system during the Nixon years bears no resemblance to today. Back then only countries could buy and sell currencies and the precious commodities that backed them. Today anyone can buy and sell currencies. Countries buy their currencies when they think their value too low (makes foreign goods expensive) or sell them when they think their value too high (makes their goods more expensive in foreign markets, causing other countries to buy less of their goods).
The fact is, the US Dollar and Gold are competitors. And the Dollar has been defended successfully so far.
How are the dollar and gold in competition? Is the dollar in competition with platinum, too? How about silver? Copper? Pewter?
It's obvious you're saying these things not because your knowledge and understanding tells you they're true. You're saying them because that's what your YouTube nitwits are saying, or at least what you think they're saying. Stop listening to them and start thinking for yourself. The title of this subthread is, "Attempting to explain my understanding without a video," but that's not what you're doing. There's no understanding in anything you say. You're just parroting the videos.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 08-02-2022 2:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 10:54 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 100 of 328 (896260)
08-03-2022 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
08-03-2022 10:54 AM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
You mind is still polluted with all the nonsense from the YouTube ninnies. There's no point talking to you.
If anyone's interested, here's the Nixon speech about international money speculators and going off the gold standard that he made on August 15, 1971: Address to the Nation Outlining a New Economic Policy: "The Challenge of Peace."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 10:54 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 11:04 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 113 of 328 (896764)
08-20-2022 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
08-20-2022 7:24 AM


Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons
You're still not making arguments in your own words and not giving any indication you understand the topic. Again, from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.
I'm not going to comment on your post. You wouldn't actually respond, you'd just post something someone else said, either with a link or a copy/paste or a video.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 08-20-2022 7:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 118 of 328 (896772)
08-21-2022 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
08-20-2022 1:50 PM


Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons
Phat writes:
Tell that to the CCP!
Just curious if my guess is correct. Did you mean the CCCP, their name for the former Soviet Union?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 08-20-2022 1:50 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by kjsimons, posted 08-21-2022 5:46 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(5)
Message 285 of 328 (910761)
05-12-2023 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Phat
05-11-2023 2:13 PM


Re: If That Day Ever Comes
Phat writes:
If that day ever comes, I would like to see the look on the face of progressives when they realize how much of an idiot Joe Biden was (36% approval rating and dropping) when he spent all of this money on green new deals,shut down the US petroleum industry, and sanctioned Russia by using the US dollar as a weapon. You may even find Jesus during such a time.
I remain baffled that you're still such a rube for slick videos, that you think insults convey any useful information, and that you can't get basic facts straight. There's no point in engaging with you because the flow of nonsense is unending. There's no point in providing accurate information because you'll either ignore it, not understand it, or forget it by tomorrow.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Phat, posted 05-11-2023 2:13 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by nwr, posted 05-12-2023 12:50 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 292 of 328 (910769)
05-12-2023 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Theodoric
05-12-2023 1:37 PM


Re: More gibberish from Phat
Theodoric writes:
If you have no idea who Paul Krugman is maybe you should not be opining on economics.
I guess I'm okay with anyone not knowing who Paul Krugman is. What's important to me is that people know how to seek out credible voices when they need to. People like Phat who are drawn to the crazy voices are very scary.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Theodoric, posted 05-12-2023 1:37 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Theodoric, posted 05-12-2023 5:13 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 295 of 328 (910787)
05-15-2023 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Theodoric
05-12-2023 5:13 PM


Re: More gibberish from Phat
Theodoric writes:
My point is that he should be able to look Krugman up before he responds and realize that Krugman is a legitimate, well-respected economist. My wording was lacking.
You're wording was fine. It just isn't in him to do that. There's almost nothing that he actually knows. All he can do is regurgitate what other people say that he doesn't understand but who sound good to him based upon no actual criteria other than it appeals to him, who knows why. Whim? Fancy? Nice graphics? Engaging voice? Emotional appeal?
One common quality among people who are fun to discuss with is that they know what they don't know. Phat has no idea what he doesn't know and has the kind of full confidence bred by ignorance.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Theodoric, posted 05-12-2023 5:13 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Phat, posted 05-15-2023 7:34 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 300 of 328 (910793)
05-15-2023 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Phat
05-15-2023 7:34 AM


Re: More gibberish from Phat
Phat writes:
You guys are the scared ones in that you run around seeking a real expert to reassure you that the sky is not falling and neither is the economy. Good luck with that.
You can't even cast aspersions accurately.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Phat, posted 05-15-2023 7:34 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 306 of 328 (910811)
05-16-2023 8:03 AM


Some Genuine News About the Dollar as the Global Currency
From the Washington Post: Move over, U.S. dollar. China wants to make the yuan the global currency.
The gist: a rising number countries have become willing to use the Chinese yuan as a means of exchange. The prime reason some countries are permitting the yuan as a means of exchange are economic crises that result in a shortage of dollars. This is because good money flees uncertainty, and such countries and businesses face increased difficulty obtaining loans in dollars. But China is making credit terms easy for the yuan, and countries faced with a shortage of dollars have no other alternative.
A key paragraph:
Washington Post:
None of these are signs the yuan is going to dethrone the dollar any time soon, according to economists inside and outside China. This would require more countries to pay each other in yuan for large amounts of trade that doesn’t involve China, which isn’t yet happening.
But the yuan does have certain advantages over the dollar. Unlike the dollar it doesn't float according to market demands, so it's more stable. Dollar stability, or lack thereof, is affected by western sanctions on Russia, the collapse of some major US banks, and the debt ceiling crisis that threatens a default on US debt.
If and as the dollar becomes just one of many currencies used for international exchange, dollar borrowing costs internationally will increase, placing downward pressure on US trade. But being the supplier of the global currency is not a necessity for a country's economy to work. The vast majority of countries around the world are not home to the global currency, and most of them are doing just fine. Sixteen countries have higher standards of living than the US, including Slovenia, Oman and Estonia. Hosting the global currency ain't everything.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 05-16-2023 9:51 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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