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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 655 of 895 (894967)
06-03-2022 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Phat
06-03-2022 3:29 PM


Re: Giving It All Up. An Arguable Theme
Phat writes:
You make the government sound like the mafia.
The mafia wishes.
Phat writes:
And I would not give most apologists anything much less everything.
You give them an ear.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Phat, posted 06-03-2022 3:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Phat, posted 06-06-2022 4:28 AM ringo has replied
 Message 661 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 657 of 895 (895032)
06-06-2022 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Phat
06-06-2022 4:28 AM


Re: Giving It All Up. An Arguable Theme
Phat writes:
And you do what? Shut your ears to all of them?
Think. If I shut my ears to them, how would I know they were liars?
Stop squirming. Discuss apologetics.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Phat, posted 06-06-2022 4:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 663 of 895 (895072)
06-07-2022 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Phat
06-07-2022 12:20 PM


Re: Giving It All Up. An Arguable Theme
Phat writes:
IF Jesus exists eternally and outside of the book...
He doesn't.
Phat writes:
... I often promise Him that He can have it all since it is all His anyway.
That's a convenient cop-out. "It's all yours, Jesus. I'll just continue to use it until to come back and ask for it." Donald Trump could say the same thing.
But YOU do not get to decide who uses it.
Phat writes:
Now unlike your assumptions of how He must sound to me, I don't hear Jesus speaking to me through words He has said to others...
Oh, I know that. He has a special message just for you: "Never mind what I said to those people in the New Testament. Here's the REAL scoop - You keep it all and use it at your convenience. This generation - YOUR privileged generation - shall not pass before I come back and give you your special private instructions."
Phat writes:
This is no way means that I "scoff at what He says."
You scoff at the idea of giving it all up. You say it's impossible - even though many people have done it throughout history. Sounds like scoffing to me.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 664 of 895 (895074)
06-07-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by Phat
06-07-2022 12:28 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Phat writes:
Does your pension belong to you or to the people-at-large?
Are you talking to me?
I once heard a clergyman say that he doesn't receive a salary or a wage. He receives a stipend. A stipend pays his expenses so he doesn't have to go out and get a regular job, leaving his time free to do the work of the church - e.g. visiting the sick.
I think of my pension like a stipend. It pays my expenses so I don't have to go out and take a job away from a younger person who needs it more than I do.
Phat writes:
If you withdrew it from the bank and did not hand it over to the friendly government, would the people have a right to seize it?
1. The people ARE the government.
2. We're not talking about turning anything over to the government.
3. We're no talking about the people seizing anything.
4. We're talking about VOLUNTARILY giving it up.
Phat writes:
How about if you had a safety deposit box and they froze it?
See above.
Phat writes:
These answers likely will reflect what I dislike about liberal Authoritarianism.
"Liberal Authoritarianism" is a lie that your far-right-wing handlers are feeding you. I have never, in any way, shape or form, advocated the government taking anything from you by force. STOP making that stupid claim.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 670 of 895 (895118)
06-08-2022 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 667 by Phat
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Phat writes:
ringo seems to emphasize the wholly nonsensical position that Jesus told Christians (and only Christians) to sell everything they have and follow Him.
That's exactly what He said, "Sell what you have and give to the poor." That's exactly what His disciples did.
YOU keep claiming that I want the government to seize everything you have, despite me telling you repeatedly that it's supposed to be VOLUNTARY.
Phat writes:
So what does this mean today?
The same as it meant 2000 years ago.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 06-14-2022 2:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 686 of 895 (895232)
06-16-2022 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 676 by Phat
06-14-2022 2:30 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Phat writes:
Not *everyone that He knew did this. Mary and Martha didn't. The Roman Centurion didn't.
So... they weren't saved. *shrug* You can't negate what He said by pointing out people who didn't comply. Look at the ones who did.
Phat writes:
Voluntary.
Voluntary - but a requirement for salvation. Jesus won't save anybody against their will.
Phat writes:
EVERYONE that He spoke to didn't do it.
See above.
The rich man asked, "What MUST I do to be saved?" and Jesus answered, "Sell what you have and give to the poor."
It's a MUST if you want to be saved. Anybody who did not comply would not be saved.
Phat writes:
So why is it necessary to become totally broke?
Ask Jesus.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 06-14-2022 2:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 687 of 895 (895233)
06-16-2022 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 681 by Dredge
06-15-2022 1:34 AM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Dredge writes:
When did Jesus tell his followers to live in the commune described in Acts 4:34-35?
It doesn't mention when He told them. It also doesn't mention His shoe size or His favorite pizza topping.
The point is that THEY thought He told them. Why do you think you know better than the church in Acts?
Dredge writes:
How did you get from ...
Jesus telling the rich young to give away all his wealth to the poor
TO
Jesus (allegedly) telling all his followers to live in a socialist commune?
Jesus told the rich man he MUST sell what he had and give to the poor. It was a requirement for salvation.
Why would there be different requirements for different people?
Dredge writes:
You seem to be conflating two different and separate matters.
How is it possible to separate them?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Dredge, posted 06-15-2022 1:34 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 689 by Dredge, posted 06-18-2022 1:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 688 of 895 (895234)
06-16-2022 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 683 by Dredge
06-15-2022 9:48 AM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Dredge writes:
How ironic ... the only people who listen to your idiotic interpretation of the Bible are your fellow atheists.
It is ironic isn't it? The people who refuse to follow Jesus' explicit instructions - and call His instructions "idiotic" - call themselves "Christians".

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by Dredge, posted 06-15-2022 9:48 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 696 of 895 (895264)
06-18-2022 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 689 by Dredge
06-18-2022 1:48 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Dredge writes:
In other words, you have zero evidence that Jesus said all his followers must live in socialist communes.
On the contrary, YOU have zero evidence that He didn't. He did tell one man specifically and the early church did live that way, so they must have thought that it applied to them too.
Dredge writes:
The Holy Spirit told them (after the day of Pentecost), not Jesus.
It's irrelevant which member of the Trinity told them. The point is that they were told - and you just admitted that they were.
Dredge writes:
Jesus instructed the rich man to give away his wealth to the "poor" ... which has got nothing whatsoever to do with donating all his wealth to, and then living in, a socialist commune.
According to Acts 4:35, "distribution was made unto every man according as he had need," so yes, it is the same thing.
Dredge writes:
It was a requirement for the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem at that time, not for all Christians. There is no evidence that Gentile Christians were commanded to live that way, let alone told that it is necessary for salvation.
Where's your evidence for that? And how do you reconcile different people having different requirements for salvation?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by Dredge, posted 06-18-2022 1:48 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2022 1:21 PM ringo has replied
 Message 698 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2022 1:53 PM ringo has replied
 Message 699 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2022 2:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 700 of 895 (895413)
06-26-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by Dredge
06-25-2022 1:21 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Dredge writes:
The "poor" that Jesus refers to in Matt 19:21 could not possibly be the Christian commune described in Acts (2, 4, 5) ... simply bcoz the Acts commune was not formed until after the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) .... well after Jesus' time on earth!
I didn't say it was. I said that the Christian commune was following the instructions of Jesus, contrary to your claim that their actions were completely unrelated to what Jesus said.
Dredge writes:
The "poor" in Matt 19: is not a reference to the Christian commune in Acts, but to any poor people in the general community.
I didn't say it was. I said that they were following His instructions.
Are all of your misconceptions based on lack of reading comprehension?
Dredge writes:
There are about Bible 300 references to caring for the "poor", and none of them refer to a commune such as the one in Acts.
The commune in Acts was in direct response to what Jesus said.
And the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira is an idication that the commune was a valid interpretation of what Jesus said. Why else would God kill the ones who didn't obey Jesus?
Dredge writes:
Unsurprisingly, you won't find one Bible scholar or commentary on the planet who agrees with your ridiculous interpretation.
Neither will you find any of the Early Church Fathers agreeing with you.
On the contrary, the early Church did exactly what Jesus said - and exactly as I have said.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2022 1:21 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 701 of 895 (895414)
06-26-2022 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 699 by Dredge
06-25-2022 2:27 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Dredge writes:
Furthermore, there are many sins mentioned in the NT, but - surprise, surprise - not donating all your possessions and wealth to a socialist Christain commune is not one of them.
God killed Ananias and Sapphira for not doing it. Doesn't that suggest that it was "wrong"?
Dredge writes:
There are not "different requirements for salvation".
Contrary to your hillbilly reading of Scripture, donating all your possessions and wealth to a socialist Christain commune is not a requirement for salvation.
Jesus told the rich young ruler that he "must" do it to be saved - i.e. it WAS a requirement for him. It also appeared to be a requirement for Ananias and Sapphira. So I'm stll waiting for you to explain why you think it is (conveniently) not a requirement for YOU. You clearly ARE suggesting different standards for different people.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2022 2:27 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 702 of 895 (895434)
06-27-2022 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 698 by Dredge
06-25-2022 1:53 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Dredge writes:
Jesus told the rich young man, in order to be "perfect" (Matt 19:21), he should give all that he had to the poor.
Jesus was answering the rich young man's question:
quote
Matthew 19:16 ... Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
He asked, "What MUST I do?" He was asking for REQUIREMENTS.
Jesus told him he MUST follow the commandments and the young man said:
quote
Matthew 19:20 ... All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
He was asking what else he was REQUIRED to do to have eternal life.
And Jesus replied:
quote
Matthew 19:21 ... go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Jesus was answering a question about REQUIREMENTS.
Dredge writes:
So it was not a necessity, but a voluntary act on the part of the rich young man.
Having eternal life is voluntary. The REQUIREMENTS for having it are not.
Dredge writes:
Peter is saying that before and after the sale of the land, Ananias was free to do with it whatever he wanted.
He was LEGALLY free to do what he wanted with the land. Roman Law and Jewish law did not recognize Jesus' REQUIREMENTS. The rich young man was legally free NOT to choose eternal life.
Dredge writes:
The grave sin of Ananias and his wife was attempting to deceive the Christian community into thinking they were generous and devoted by donating all the proceeds of the land sale ...
Peter was quite clear. They were guilty of deception AND keeping back part of the proceeds. Keeping back part of the proceeds was clearly part of the wrongdoing. Lying about it only compounded the transgression.
(And Phat should be ashamed of himself for cheering your nonsense. I've been through all this with him before.)

Edited by ringo, : Matthew 12 --> Matthew 19


"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2022 1:53 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by Phat, posted 06-29-2022 2:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 705 of 895 (895470)
06-30-2022 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by Phat
06-29-2022 2:14 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Phat writes:
Your interpretation is wrong.
And yet neither you nor Dread can defend your interpetation.
Phat writes:
You didn't imagine yourself an expert at scripture, did you?
I have pretty good reading comprehension and I'm just pointing out what the scripture actually says. It's your interpretation that denies what the scripture says. It's your interpretation that is inconsistent with a large volume of scripture. And it's your interpretation that is egregiously self-serving.
Phat writes:
You have had the audacity to state that parts of the Bible are wrong and that you only follow and quote the parts that get it right.
I have said no such thing.
I have said that many parts of the Bible are wrong, and they are. The Flood is a prime example. And I have said that Jesus' message did happen to get it right.
What I have said about the passage in question (giving it all up for God) is exactly what Jesus said and that that principle permeates much of the Bible. I have not advocated that you should do what Jesus said. I have simply pointed out that that is what He said.
Phat writes:
The only reason you like the idea that Jesus expects everyone to give everything they have up before they gain eternal life is that you are a leftist who believes that people have a charge to take care of each other.
I'm going to have to go through that sentence almost word by word to point out most of what's wrong with it:
Phat writes:
The only reason you like the idea...
I have never said that I like the idea. I have said that that is what Jesus said.
Phat writes:
... that Jesus expects everyone to give everything they have up before they gain eternal life...
No. Jesus doesn't "expect" any such thing. He requires that his followers give everything up. If you don't do it, you're not his follower and you will not receive eternal life.
Phat writes:
... you are a leftist who believes that people have a charge to take care of each other.
It's not a "charge" and it isn't exclusive to "leftists". EVERYBODY ought to take care of each other. That's the point of being a social species.
Phat writes:
... let me remind you that were the state EVER to declare that everyones money belonged to them ...
Get this through your thick skull, you moron: I HAVE NOT SAID A WORD ABOUT "THE STATE" TAKING ANYTHING!
Phat writes:
Even the Apostles told Ananias that the money remained his after the sale.
As I said to Dredge, that was Roman law and/or Jewish law. It has nothing to do with whether or not you give it up.
Phat writes:
And even if Jesus had spoken of such a requirment, it was clarely NOT applicable to everybody....
And yet neither you nor Dredge has been able to demonstrate that it is not applicable to everybody. Why would there be different requirements for salvation for different people?
Phat writes:
... the Apostles would no have ever read it since there was no Bible at that time.
DUH! The apostles heard it from Jesus Himself - and they obeyed.
(And yes, there was an Old Testament at the time. I have mentioned the widow who gave Elijah her last morsel of food even though she expected herself and her son to die as a result. For homework, go ahead and search the Old Testament for similar examples.)
Phat writes:
If they had the Holy Spirit, which is commonly believed, they would have done precisely what the Spirit led them to do.
Then the apostles "Had the Holy Spirit" because they did what Jesus told them to do. And the early Church (except for Ananias and Sapphira) had it because they did what Jesus told them to do. And the lady with two mites. Etc.
Phat writes:
I have no shame over your preferred teachings.
It isn't my "prefered" teaching. It's YOUR teaching.
quote
Psalm 119:78 Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.

Edited by ringo, : Removed sentence fragment. Don't remember what the whole sentence was supposed to be.


"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by Phat, posted 06-29-2022 2:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by Phat, posted 07-01-2022 3:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 709 of 895 (895476)
07-02-2022 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by Phat
07-01-2022 3:20 PM


Re: Giving It ALL up to Whom?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I HAVE NOT SAID A WORD ABOUT "THE STATE" TAKING ANYTHING!
I never said you did.
Then why do you bring it up at all? It has NOTHING to do with what we were talking about.
Phat writes:
I said only that IF the State (or Federal Government) has any illusions about a necessary bail-in to "save" the economy they would have NO RIGHT to do so.
Nonsense. The government certainly does have the "right" to tax you - and you have an obligation to render unto Caesar.
Phat writes:
(And im thinking that in an emergency YOU would support such a thing!)
In an emergency, the government has the right and the obligation to fix things. Any sensible person would support that. What's YOUR plan? Shoot your way out of floods, famine and pestilence?
Phat writes:
Again I ask you to whom we would give everything (materialistic) up?
I have answered that soooooo many times. Don't you read my posts at all?
Phat writes:
I certainly don't trust either the apologists OR the government.
You certainly DO trust the apologists. Otherwise, why would you parrot their bullshit?
Phat writes:
What puzzles me is how you claim on the one hand that Jesus wants us to give it ALL up and yet reassure me that I wouldn't be homeless.
It's JESUS who promises to take care of you:
quote
Luke 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Phat, posted 07-01-2022 3:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by Phat, posted 07-02-2022 2:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 714 of 895 (895490)
07-03-2022 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 710 by Phat
07-02-2022 2:56 PM


Re: Giving It ALL up to Whom?
Phat writes:
He is not a static character in a book who has given all of us marching orders and disqualifies anyone who is not all-in.
See, this is why people keep asking you if you' ve ever read the Bible.
quote
Revelation 3: 15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Phat writes:
And you find it incredible that I don't fully trust myself in regards to listening.
It isn't about trusting yourself. It's about trusting God.
Phat writes:
The issue is how much they have a right to. ALL of it?
No it isn't. The issue here had nothing to do with what the government takes.
Phat writes:
Do you even know what a Bail-In is?
I know it has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 710 by Phat, posted 07-02-2022 2:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by Phat, posted 07-03-2022 3:47 PM ringo has replied

  
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