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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 256 of 1429 (895419)
06-26-2022 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Dredge
06-26-2022 4:24 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Please describe how the "mechanisms behind evolution" produced an amphibian's double-circulation heart from the single-circulation heart of a fish.
Please describe how the "mechanisms behind evolution"...
Please describe how the "mechanisms behind evolution"...
Protein differences creating incrementally different structures over generations as determined by changes in the gene sequence and selected for in the environment.
That is how all three of your 'please describes' were manifest.
And we know this from observation in the field and experiments in the lab.
If you want to know how a genome works and how it creates novel proteins then just ask.
Keep asking and we may be able to overcome the stupidity of your being an evil satanic catholic. There is hope.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Dredge, posted 06-26-2022 4:24 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 257 of 1429 (895420)
06-26-2022 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Dredge
06-26-2022 4:24 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Drudge writes:
I think it's fair to say atheist Darwinists believe that the history of life on earth proceeded according to ToE ... ie, they believe ToE is a fact.
I wonder if any Atheist Darwinists would agree with your fairness? So, you can read the thoughts of a subset of atheists and a subset Darwinists and even better, you know what they believe? How many of these guys are there? Got any names?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Dredge, posted 06-26-2022 4:24 PM Dredge has replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 258 of 1429 (895422)
06-26-2022 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Dredge
06-26-2022 4:24 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
I think it's fair to say atheist Darwinists believe that the history of life on earth proceeded according to ToE ... ie, they believe ToE is a fact.
Oh, yes, those atheist Darwinists are just the worst, aren't they?
Anyone who claims to know how ToE produced the history of life on earth is, in effect, claiming ToE is a fact.
Now you're just playing games with the word "know." No one here has used the word "know" in anything other than a scientific sense. Scientific theories are tentative, always open to change.
But it is true that science believes that the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have for the diversity of life on earth, including the history of that life as recorded in the fossil record.
Please describe how the "mechanisms behind evolution" produced an amphibian's double-circulation heart from the single-circulation heart of a fish.
Please describe how the "mechanisms behind evolution" produced a whale's blowhole and tail from the morphology of a land mammal.

Please describe how the "mechanisms behind evolution" produced any evolutionary transition evident in the fossil record.
Please describe the workings in your mind behind repeating what is basically the same question over and over again while never addressing any of the many times it's been addressed.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Dredge, posted 06-26-2022 4:24 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by xongsmith, posted 06-26-2022 9:12 PM Percy has replied
 Message 367 by Dredge, posted 07-21-2022 8:05 PM Percy has replied
 Message 373 by Dredge, posted 07-22-2022 6:06 AM Percy has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 259 of 1429 (895425)
06-26-2022 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Percy
06-26-2022 5:54 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Percy writes, in part:
But it is true that science believes that the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have for the diversity of life on earth, including the history of that life as recorded in the fossil record.
Wait, wait, wait!
Just to pick a minor nit, "believes" is the wrong word. Science accepts as abundantly evidenced that the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have for the diversity of life on earth...
...given that Dredge is dredging around definitions of words like "know".
But do carry on, good show!

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Percy, posted 06-26-2022 5:54 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 260 of 1429 (895426)
06-26-2022 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by AZPaul3
06-26-2022 5:22 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Please describe how the "mechanisms behind evolution" produced a whale's blowhole and tail from the morphology of a land mammal.
Message 120
Stop repeating the question and respond to the answer.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by AZPaul3, posted 06-26-2022 5:22 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 261 of 1429 (895427)
06-26-2022 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by xongsmith
06-26-2022 9:12 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
xongsmith writes:
Just to pick a minor nit, "believes" is the wrong word. Science accepts as abundantly evidenced that the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have for the diversity of life on earth...
Good point. Unable to string together chains of evidence and argument to reach valid conclusions he's forced to play games with words, and undoubtedly he'll do it with "believes", too. Of course everything we've been saying is meant scientifically, but restating it in a manner less vulnerable to purposeful misinterpretation, it is the consensus of the relevant scientific community that the theory of evolution best explains the diversity of life.
--Percy

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 Message 259 by xongsmith, posted 06-26-2022 9:12 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 262 of 1429 (895428)
06-27-2022 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Dredge
06-26-2022 4:24 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
I think it's fair to say atheist Darwinists believe that the history of life on earth proceeded according to ToE ... ie, they believe ToE is a fact.
What would be fair to say is that evolutionary biologists (and a few billion other people of all religious beliefs and none) accept evolution as a fact. Because it is.
The ToE though, is not a fact in scientific terms, it has a higher status than a simple fact.
“[…] a scientific theory is the framework for observations and facts. Theories may change, or the way that they are interpreted may change, but the facts themselves don't change. "For example, we have ample evidence of traits in populations becoming more or less common over time (evolution), so evolution is a fact, but the overarching theories about evolution, the way that we think all of the facts go together might change as new observations of evolution are made,"
What Is a Scientific Theory?
Neither atheism nor belief has any application in science. And that's a fact.

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Dredge, posted 06-26-2022 4:24 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 06-27-2022 9:31 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 374 by Dredge, posted 07-22-2022 6:42 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 263 of 1429 (895429)
06-27-2022 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Tangle
06-27-2022 3:24 AM


Facts are not Forever
This will likely throw a monkey wrench into any chances there were of Dredge comprehending what we're saying, but have to say it: not even facts are immutable. Even our observations, measurements and experimental results are subject to reinterpretation and/or change.
It's important to be clear that what many people call facts are not actually facts. It was not a fact that there were nine planets until 2006 when we lost Pluto, leaving only eight. Of course Pluto continues in its orbit around the sun just as it always has. What was a fact was that there were nine planets under the criteria for planets that existed up until 2006 when they changed the criteria and Pluto was reclassified as a dwarf planet.
It's not possible to bring the number back up to nine by including dwarf planets in the count because Pluto isn't the only one. There's no agreement on an exact count, but the IAU currently counts five dwarf planets: Ceres, Pluto, Haumea, Makemake, and Eris.
But a fact that I think we did consider an actual fact was that electrons orbit the atomic nucleus in discrete shells. Many websites still describe the Bohr atom where electrons travel "in circular orbits around the nucleus" at discrete energy levels (atom - Orbits and energy levels). This is pretty much what I was taught in 8th grade over half a century ago, and according to Wikipedia it is grossly out of date.
Our understanding today is that electrons exist in an electron cloud within which there are atomic orbitals where mathematical functions express the probability of an electron existing at any particular point. Opinion might vary, but in my view how electrons reside in an atom is a fact that has changed.
Another fact that has changed is the expanding universe. We knew it was expanding, and we thought it a fact that the expansion was slowing due to gravity because nothing else seemed possible. Then a couple decades ago while trying to measure how fast the expansion was slowing we learned that the expansion was actgually accelerating, giving birth to the term dark energy. I call it a term rather than a phenomenon or a concept because we have no idea what it is. We know what it does, but we don't know what it is.
My view, and I know not everyone shares it, is that tentativity extends not only to theory but also to the supposed facts that underlie theory.
--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Clear up an ambiguous sentence about the electron.

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2022 3:24 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by nwr, posted 06-27-2022 9:58 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 264 of 1429 (895431)
06-27-2022 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Percy
06-27-2022 9:31 AM


Re: Facts are not Forever
not even facts are immutable.
I agree with that.
It's important to be clear that what many people call facts are not actually facts.
But here, I disagree, unless you want to insist that there are no such things as facts.
What makes something a fact depends on human social conventions. And human social conventions change over time, so that what we take to be a fact can change over time.
I expect YECs to disagree with this. They do see facts as coming directly from their God, and thus not subject to human social conventions. However, they are just following their own YEC social convention.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 265 of 1429 (895433)
06-27-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Percy
06-27-2022 9:31 AM


Re: Facts are not Forever
I think we're just entering the twilight zone with this kind of linguistic juggling. At any point in time we can only work with the 'facts' as we know them and some facts are very, very solid - within the norms of everyday life, apples fall to the ground - fact.
Reclassifying stuff and changing nomenclature doesn't change anything about the stuff itself, just the box we want to put it in. We're refining the information we have about stuff we're naming is all.
btw I just love this and needs to be watched at least every six months.
Science is fucking cool.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 06-27-2022 9:31 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 266 of 1429 (895441)
06-27-2022 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dredge
06-22-2022 1:57 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Was traveling, missed this.
... and yet, despite the mountain of "don't know" regarding the ancient past, you still claim to know how evolution works. Fascinating.
You're still confusing two different things: how evolution works, and how evolution happened.
We know how evolution works because we can study it happening today.
We can't know how evolution happened in the past because selection and mutation do not leave evidence behind. Actually, that's not strictly true since mutations in modern descendants can often provide decipherable evidence about the relatedness and evolutionary descent of lifeforms, both extant and extinct.
But the important point is the distinction between how evolution works and how it happened. They're two different things. One we know, the other we usually don't, except perhaps at a very undetailed level. For instance, while we don't know the details of the evolution of the whale's blowhole, we do have fossils that indicate a progression (in different ways in different lines of descent), and we do have fetal development, which often provides clues about evolutionary history. Ontogeny doesn't recapitulate ontology in anything like the strict way that Haeckel insisted, but it does provide clues.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dredge, posted 06-22-2022 1:57 PM Dredge has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 267 of 1429 (895463)
06-29-2022 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Percy
06-27-2022 1:14 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Percy writes:
We can't know how evolution happened in the past because selection and mutation do not leave evidence behind. Actually, that's not strictly true since mutations in modern descendants can often provide decipherable evidence about the relatedness and evolutionary descent of lifeforms, both extant and extinct.
We know that mutation is responsible for the DNA sequence differences between species because of how the differences are biased, as I discussed in post 234. Mutation does leave evidence that we can see today.
We also have evidence of selection acting on genomes in the form of sequence conservation. There are regions of the genome that change more slowly over time, and this is due to selection of deleterious mutations in functional DNA.
But the important point is the distinction between how evolution works and how it happened. They're two different things. One we know, the other we usually don't, except perhaps at a very undetailed level. For instance, while we don't know the details of the evolution of the whale's blowhole, we do have fossils that indicate a progression (in different ways in different lines of descent), and we do have fetal development, which often provides clues about evolutionary history.
Mutation and selection in combination with vertical inheritance will produce a nested hierarchy. Whales fit into the nested hierarchy of mammals, and more broadly the nested hierarchy of vertebrates. This is evidence that their genomes were the product of evolutionary mechanisms and vertical inheritance. We could also add patterns of sequence conservation and mutation bias to that list.

This message is a reply to:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 268 of 1429 (895566)
07-05-2022 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Tanypteryx
06-21-2022 10:34 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
My "inane questions" have demonstrated that your claim to "know how evolution works" is bullshit.
"Tanypteryx" writes:
Oh, really, how?
It has been explained to you numerous times. You just don't like the answer.
I have explained it to you numerous times. You just don't like the answer.
Regardless, I shall present my argument one more time:
1. You don't know how evolutionary mechanisms produced an amphibian's double-circulation heart from a the single-circulation heart of a fish.
2. You don't know how evolutionary mechanisms produce a whale's blowhole and tail from a land animal.
3. In fact, you don't how evolutionary mechanisms produced any evolutionary transitions evident in the fossil record.
1 + 2 + 3 = your claim to know how evolution works is clearly bullsh_t.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-21-2022 10:34 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-06-2022 12:10 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 270 by dwise1, posted 07-06-2022 12:48 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 271 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2022 1:14 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 272 by vimesey, posted 07-06-2022 2:14 AM Dredge has replied
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 269 of 1429 (895567)
07-06-2022 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Dredge
07-05-2022 11:59 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Drudge writes:
1. You don't know how evolutionary mechanisms produced an amphibian's double-circulation heart from a the single-circulation heart of a fish.

2. You don't know how evolutionary mechanisms produce a whale's blowhole and tail from a land animal.

3. In fact, you don't how evolutionary mechanisms produced any evolutionary transitions evident in the fossil record.
Sure we do as we have repeatedly told you. Reproduction, nutation, selection, repeat. Descent with modification. All the evidence supports this process, but you go on and on spewing bullshit.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Dredge, posted 07-05-2022 11:59 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Dredge, posted 07-30-2022 1:44 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(4)
Message 270 of 1429 (895569)
07-06-2022 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Dredge
07-05-2022 11:59 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
1 + 2 + 3 = your claim to know how evolution works is clearly bullsh_t.
No, rather any claim you would make that you know or understand reality would clearly be complete and utter bullshit.
We know that from direct observation of your multiple and determined demonstrations of your inability to understand anything despite everybody's attempts to explain it to you.
Maybe if you were to stop working so zealously at willful stupidity, you might be able to rise above your origins in the slime of the bottom. I take it that your avatar is a photo of your mother who had dredged you up and that you named yourself after her.
Oh well, stupid is as creationists do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Dredge, posted 07-05-2022 11:59 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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