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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 226 of 1429 (895350)
06-23-2022 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Tanypteryx
06-22-2022 4:55 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Do you understand the difference between a THEORY and KNOWLEDGE?
Tanypteryx writes:
You really don't get it, do you?
If I don't "get it", please explain what you mean.

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-22-2022 4:55 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 227 of 1429 (895351)
06-23-2022 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Tanypteryx
06-22-2022 4:55 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Do you understand the difference between a THEORY and KNOWLEDGE?
Tanypteryx writes:
Funny, the only people who have this fantasy are creationists, because all you have is faith in fictional stories.
You can't prove that they're "fictional stories", so your claim is based on faith.
The Theory of Evolution has something far more powerful than faith...it has supporting evidence in libraries and museums around the world.
But Darwinists (esp the atheist variety) believe that ToE is more than a theory - they believe it is a fact. Believing that a theory is also a fact requires an act of FAITH.
It's impossible to know how any of the evolutionary transitions evident in the fossil record occurred, so atheists like you put your FAITH in ToE to provide an explanation ... going so far as to make the laughable FAITH claim that you "know" how that those transitions happened.
Come to think of it, to claim to "know" something that can't possibly be known actually goes beyond faith ... it's flat-out DELUSION.
I have faith in Jesus Christ and I believe my faith is the truth, but unlike Darwinist fanatics, I don't claim to "know" that my faith is the truth. That is the difference between religious faith and Darwinist delusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-22-2022 4:55 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by nwr, posted 06-23-2022 3:04 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 231 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-23-2022 3:37 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 252 by Percy, posted 06-25-2022 3:42 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 253 by Parasomnium, posted 06-25-2022 4:47 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 228 of 1429 (895352)
06-23-2022 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Percy
05-31-2022 11:23 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Percy writes:
But which of these two possibilities is what really happened? We don't know. When did it happen? We don't know. Was the change gradual or sudden? We don't know. What caused the chromosomes to combine or to split? We don't know.
It's impossible to know how even ONE evolutionary transition evident in the fossil record happened ... yet you claim to know how evolution works!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Percy, posted 05-31-2022 11:23 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Percy, posted 06-25-2022 9:17 PM Dredge has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 229 of 1429 (895354)
06-23-2022 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Dredge
06-23-2022 2:35 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
But Darwinists (esp the atheist variety) believe that ToE is more than a theory - they believe it is a fact.
Your mistake. The "fact" of evolution is not the same thing as the "theory" of evolution.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 2:35 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Dredge, posted 07-10-2022 7:00 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 230 of 1429 (895355)
06-23-2022 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by kjsimons
06-20-2022 6:17 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
kjsimons writes:
you basically admit that evolution happens. So why tf are you even posting here? Since you agree evolution happens, there is no argument!
I accept that the fossil record shows that life-forms have changed over time ... a process that could be called "evolution". However, I don't accept the Darwinian explanation for that "evolution".
In fact, I don't accept any scientific explanation for the fossil record, because it's impossible to know what process was responsible ... hence my contention that anyone who claims to know how evolution works is talking nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by kjsimons, posted 06-20-2022 6:17 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by kjsimons, posted 06-23-2022 3:43 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 234 by Taq, posted 06-23-2022 4:19 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 06-24-2022 11:50 AM Dredge has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 231 of 1429 (895356)
06-23-2022 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Dredge
06-23-2022 2:35 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
You can't prove that they're "fictional stories", so your claim is based on faith.
No, my claim is based on the fact that there is no supporting evidence that they are anything other than fiction.
But Darwinists (esp the atheist variety) believe that ToE is more than a theory - they believe it is a fact.
Well, I don't know any Darwinists of the atheist variety so I don't know or care what they believe.
On the other hand, evolutionary biologists know that the Theory of Evolution is an EXPLANATION of the supporting evidence for evolution.
It's impossible to know how any of the evolutionary transitions evident in the fossil record occurred
You have given no valid reason to doubt that evolution occurred in the past any differently than we see it occurring in the present, other than your own vacuous incredulity.
Come to think of it, to claim to "know" something that can't possibly be known actually goes beyond faith ... it's flat-out DELUSION.

I have faith in Jesus Christ and I believe my faith is the truth, but unlike Darwinist fanatics, I don't claim to "know" that my faith is the truth. That is the difference between religious faith and Darwinist delusion.
Well, I have to admit it, you do seem to have first hand knowledge of delusion.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


(1)
Message 232 of 1429 (895357)
06-23-2022 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Dredge
06-23-2022 3:34 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
I accept that the fossil record shows that life-forms have changed over time ... a process that could be called "evolution". However, I don't accept the Darwinian explanation for that "evolution".

In fact, I don't accept any scientific explanation for the fossil record, because it's impossible to know what process was responsible ... hence my contention that anyone who claims to know how evolution works is talking nonsense.
So I guess than you also don't think much about cosmetology, geology or any field that relies on deep time with no ability to witness the far past events directly? All these fields including the study of evolution, study the past by the remnants or artifacts left behind or in the case of evolution in an organisms dna. Why do you choose to stick your head in the sand rather than to look at the evidence? Do you have something personal against evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 3:34 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Capt Stormfield, posted 06-25-2022 1:25 PM kjsimons has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 233 of 1429 (895358)
06-23-2022 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Tangle
06-20-2022 5:59 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
See Message 230

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2022 5:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 234 of 1429 (895359)
06-23-2022 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Dredge
06-23-2022 3:34 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Dredge writes:
In fact, I don't accept any scientific explanation for the fossil record, because it's impossible to know what process was responsible ... hence my contention that anyone who claims to know how evolution works is talking nonsense.
Your refusal to address evidence does not make the evidence go away. I think most rational people would agree that we can determine what happened in the past by looking at evidence in the present.
As to evolution, we have that evidence. If evolution did produce those fossils and the biodiversity we see today then we should see a twin nested hierarchy. These would be correlated trees of life for morphology and DNA sequence. That's exactly what we see. We see a nested hierarchy. This is smoking gun evidence for evolution.
We can even test for specific mechanisms. For example, we observe that there are specific biases in substitution mutations where similar bases tend to get replaced for one another. This means A's tend to be replaced by G's and C's tend to be replaced by T's (and vice versa). These are called transition mutations. Switching out dissimilar bases is called a transversion mutation. We can measure the percentage of transition and transversion mutations happening in modern genomes, in real time. We can then compare genomes between species. Guess what? We see the exact same pattern. The ratios of transition and transversion mutations between species matches the same pattern we observe in mutations happening in the present day.
Human Genetics Confirms Mutations as the Drivers of Diversity and Evolution
But of course, you just ignore this evidence because you have deemed it impossible to learn about the past by looking at evidence in the present. The only reason I can find for doing so is to hold on to your YEC beliefs because I think you know where the evidence is pointing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 3:34 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Dredge, posted 07-18-2022 5:29 PM Taq has not replied
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 235 of 1429 (895360)
06-23-2022 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Tangle
06-06-2022 3:11 AM


Tangle writes:
This science = atheism thing though must be really hard to square in even an addled mind. It's just wrong isn't it?
The late science historian and atheist, Dr. William Provine, said,
"Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented".
According to you he was talking complete crap.
Atheism is a minority interest, most scientists - and that includes people working directly in areas such a evolutionary biology - are not atheists.
That is almost certainly bullshit.
"Nearly 95% of the biologists in the National Academy of Sciences describe themselves as atheists or agnostics, a far higher percentage than in any other scientific discipline."
[Larry Witham,
Where Darwin Meets the Bible (2002), pp. 271-273]"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Tangle, posted 06-06-2022 3:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Taq, posted 06-23-2022 5:00 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 237 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2022 5:36 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 06-24-2022 11:57 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(3)
Message 236 of 1429 (895362)
06-23-2022 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Dredge
06-23-2022 4:26 PM


Dredge writes:
"Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented".
That's because Christians keep saying that if evolution is true then the Bible is false. When faced with the overwhelming evidence for evolution, what are people supposed to think of the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 4:26 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 237 of 1429 (895363)
06-23-2022 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Dredge
06-23-2022 4:26 PM


Dredge writes:
The late science historian and atheist, Dr. William Provine, said,
"Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented".
Never heard of him but he's at least half right. Evolution was not invented, it was discovered. Like we discovered the moons of Jupiter - we didn't invent them, we finally did enough work and got clever enough to find them.
But sure, once we'd discovered that species were not immutable as the Christian teachings had it, there was reason to doubt the Christian teachings. Just like when we found that there was institutionally supported kiddy-fiddling in the Catholice Church there was reason to believe that maybe it was run by a bunch of cunts.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 4:26 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 238 of 1429 (895368)
06-23-2022 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by AZPaul3
06-20-2022 6:50 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
AZPaul3 writes:
What we know is the ToE together with sister sciences like biology, genetics, paleontology and a whole host of others. And all that knowledge (note the root word of knowledge is to know) makes it plain to all but the most braindead that evolution made everything just as the theories predicted.
Please be advised that a theory is not knowledge.
We KNOW how an internal combustion engine works ... hence there is no Theory of Internal Combustion Engines.
We KNOW how to build a house ... hence there is no Theory of House-building.
Conversely, we DON'T KNOW what process was responsible for the fossil record ... hence there is a Theory of Evolution.
For your psychological well-being, you and your fellow atheists need to delude yourselves that ToE is a fact and is therefore "knowledge" ... which is actually oxymoronic ... if it were a fact it wouldn't be a theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2022 6:50 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by nwr, posted 06-23-2022 11:16 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 241 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-23-2022 11:26 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 242 by dwise1, posted 06-24-2022 12:03 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 247 by Taq, posted 06-24-2022 5:07 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 239 of 1429 (895369)
06-23-2022 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by AZPaul3
06-20-2022 6:50 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
188
AZPaul3 writes:
What we know is the ToE together with sister sciences like biology, genetics, paleontology and a whole host of others. And all that knowledge (note the root word of knowledge is to know) makes it plain to all but the most braindead that evolution made everything just as the theories predicted.
Yep, you have so much knowledge about evolution that you can't describe how even one evolutionary transition evident in the fossil record happened.

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2022 6:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 06-24-2022 12:01 PM Dredge has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 240 of 1429 (895370)
06-23-2022 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Dredge
06-23-2022 10:48 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Please be advised that a theory is not knowledge.
Your mistake.
We KNOW how an internal combustion engine works ... hence there is no Theory of Internal Combustion Engines.
That's another mistake. Thermodynamics is a theory of heat engines.
You clearly have a mistaken understanding of "theory".
We KNOW how to build a house ... hence there is no Theory of House-building.
Yet another mistake. Architecture is a theory of house building.
For your psychological well-being, you and your fellow atheists need to delude yourselves that ToE is a fact and ...
Of course ToE is not a fact. It is a theory. What people refer to as facts of evolution is something different.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 10:48 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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