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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 962 of 1184 (895097)
06-07-2022 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 959 by kjsimons
06-07-2022 7:00 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Again, what do you mean and do you actually have a clue what you are talking about?
What does "The biggest part of the problem is the size of the cartridges" even mean>
In a post above I pointed out that a large percentage of AR15s are chambered in .223 Remington. It's a small cartridge and great for hunting and also a fair choice for target shooting. But again, lots of different rifles are chambered in .223 Remington. Many are really old fashioned looking like Ruger's Ranch Rifle.
If new laws are going to accomplish anything then they actually need to use terms that have some definable meaning.
And don't make stupid comments like your last line when it is simply an utter misrepresentation of anything I have said.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 959 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 7:00 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 963 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 8:31 PM jar has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 963 of 1184 (895098)
06-07-2022 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 962 by jar
06-07-2022 8:09 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Sorry, I meant clips, having high capacity clips greatly increases the danger to society. There is no need except on the battlefield to have 20, 30+ rounds of ammo in a clip. This only increases the kill rate. Anyhow, you already know this and will not make some sort or other inane argument saying it's your right to have insane amounts of ammo in your clips.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 962 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 8:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 964 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 8:58 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 964 of 1184 (895099)
06-07-2022 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 963 by kjsimons
06-07-2022 8:31 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Actually, no I wouldn't say that. Personally I even agree that having 20 or thirty round clips is certainly not a necessity for most sport or self defense. Actually I don't own any truly high round count magazines.
(Just an aside and an example of why we need to use the correct wording. There are no 20 or 30 round clips.)
Yes, there would be a major stink from many gun owners BUT the fact remains that such a restriction on new purchases might help.
The issue again is reality.
While it's possible to write a Federal law that makes it illegal to sell new magazines that have a capacity of 20 rounds or more it does not address two reality factors.
First, it does not address the number of such magazines that already exist.
Second, for those who wish to be socially violent it would only mean having to carry several smaller capacity magazines.
Another aside.
I firearm training one fairly common requirement is to require magazine swaps during a timed session.
Again, yes there is a problem with violence in the US and laws such as magazine capacity might make some difference over the long term it would be minimal.
Remember, people that decide to commit mass shooting are not folk that tend to be deterred by laws.
And we still need to address the things I mentioned in Message 937 and perhaps try to figure out a way they could be implemented.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 963 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 8:31 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 965 of 1184 (895100)
06-07-2022 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 957 by jar
06-07-2022 5:43 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
jar asks:
So if you want to write a law banning weapons of war, what would be the wording?
any weapon that can kill a classroom of children in less than 30 seconds would be a start.
you weapon fetishers haven't said why can't you carry dynamite into a classroom, or poison gas or a missile or a thermonuclear bomb.
and these AR-15 types make horrible hunting weapons and only seem preferable by mass shooters.
it's called Harm Reduction. Do that right now and also get busy on the mental health issues which would takes decades to implement.
the human experiment that is being conducted in the USA has been a blatant demonstration of a failure of the species to work together.
it's way past the time to halt the experiment.
collectively we're just not good enough to own these kind of weapons. sad.

Edited by xongsmith, : collectively


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 957 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 5:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 966 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 9:07 PM xongsmith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 966 of 1184 (895101)
06-07-2022 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 965 by xongsmith
06-07-2022 9:01 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
I agree that crazy people make crazy choices.
And in reality an AR15 is not a horrible hunting weapons. It's not what I would choose but there are hunters that do use an AR15.
Again though, you are not suggesting something that could reasonable have ANY effect in the future. There are a whole lots of AR15s out there already.
What is needed are things that might actually have a beneficial effect.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 965 by xongsmith, posted 06-07-2022 9:01 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 968 by xongsmith, posted 06-07-2022 9:33 PM jar has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 967 of 1184 (895102)
06-07-2022 9:13 PM


Matthew McConaughey
Parts of his 9 minute vid were played on both ABC World News Tonight and Jesse Watters "Prime Time" show on Fox News. At the 2:15 point;
quote
We need to "restrain sensationalist media coverage".
Fox News played that part, ABC did not.

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 968 of 1184 (895103)
06-07-2022 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 966 by jar
06-07-2022 9:07 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
well, we could ban sale of ammunition.
that would dry up the scene pretty quick, as the practice shooting ranges would use it up.
sure, some could make ammo, but that takes time, time that would slow down the frequency of mass shootings while the mental health measures continue.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 966 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 9:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 969 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 7:58 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 969 of 1184 (895104)
06-08-2022 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 968 by xongsmith
06-07-2022 9:33 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Might help. It certainly helped with drugs.
Fortunately I'm old and so even if the production or sale of ammo was banned I'd likely do just fine.
But again, the problem is violence not guns.
The US needs to address the root causes of the extreme violence so common in the US.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 968 by xongsmith, posted 06-07-2022 9:33 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 971 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 9:57 AM jar has replied
 Message 976 by Percy, posted 06-08-2022 11:41 AM jar has replied
 Message 982 by ringo, posted 06-08-2022 12:12 PM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 970 of 1184 (895105)
06-08-2022 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 956 by kjsimons
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
I just want to inject my own view into the discussion. Most people own guns for emotional reasons, not practical or factual ones. The emotional truth about guns is that people fall in love with them, but the practical truth is that guns are more likely to be used on family or friends, not in a defensive or "save the day" situation. A gun in the house puts people at greater risk, not less.
This focus on semi-automatics and weapons of war, which is the category with the best chance of some kind of political action, is just the gun-sanity side looking for a win. I assume the gun-sanity side has researched this and found that campaigning on a platform that more guns means greater risk and danger, not less, is a loser politically.
Maybe so, but it's also the truth, and until the gun-sanity side starts speaking truth instead of some mumbled gobbledygook that no one understands, people will vote for the gun nuts who have a simple and clear message: this gun will protect you from the bad guys. You'll be safer with this gun. With this gun you could even be the hero, the good guy with a gun who stops a bad guy with a gun.
The actual reality of guns' danger is illustrated by a case in Florida where a mother was arrested for manslaughter after her two-year-old found a gun and shot her husband in the back, killing him (Florida Toddler Fatally Shoots Father After Finding Loaded Gun).
I should add one thing about semi-automatics. Although the deaths caused by mass shootings represent a small part of total firearm deaths, every single one of the deadliest mass shootings in the US in the table at Mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia involved a semi-automatic.
Someone mentioned that the caliber of most AR-15's is only .22, but the muzzle speed is three times higher. Any tissue it hits turns to jello. If an AR-15 round hits your kidney, you don't have a wound to your kidney. You have jello.
There's a psychology about guns. Guns are embedded in the the culture. People fall in love with them and what they can do. They become sentimental about them. Many fun recreational activities are built around guns. Guns make people feel safer. People glorify them, imagining the gun saving people from attack. They love the sense of power that comes with shooting a gun. Guns have an addictive quality.
So people will not easily give up their guns. It's going to be a long tough slog where it must be repeated over and over again that the 2nd amendment *is* associated with militia until the Supreme Court rules rationally, that regardless the 2nd amendment does not disallow gun control, and that guns make you less safe.
Fauci learned that it was a mistake when early in the pandemic he spoke lies because it made the ends he wanted (availability of masks for medical professionals) more achievable. It cost him a bit of credibility. Most of what Fauci says turns out to be right on, but after that I always ask myself what is motivating him to say what he just said.
The gun-sanity side has to learn the same lesson. They have to start speaking truth about guns all the time instead of just saying what they think is most politically likely to work at the time.
This past Sunday's Last Week Tonight with John Oliver was about police in schools, but it has a lot to say about guns, too:
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 956 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 972 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 10:12 AM Percy has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 971 of 1184 (895107)
06-08-2022 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 969 by jar
06-08-2022 7:58 AM


9 mm Smoke and Mirrors
But again, the problem is violence not guns.

The US needs to address the root causes of the extreme violence so common in the US.
Smoke and mirrors, jar. The school room / concert / shopping mall lone shooter is not motivated by anger regardless of their testaments. They are motived by psychotic disconnects in the brain. The only impediment to their crazy action, which should be treatment but not in this society, is the availability of powerful guns. There are too many guns in this society. Until that situation is addressed the lone mass shooter will continue to terrorize.
Now street crime, city crime. Jar, violence is a manifestation of mad in a society. Why should large segments of our society be mad? Keep minimum wage depressed, education depressed, health care, voting rights, personal liberties all depressed by the political elite, the republicans, to keep a lock on power. That is more than pissing off the targeted communities. It has radicalized the mad into anarchy in the hood and the barrio where there is an easy steady flow of guns. Of course they are going to be fuckin mad.
If we had a society that would address these racist and fascist policies then we could greatly affect this mad issue and thus the gun violence issue, but we don’t. The fix takes generations of time and money and power sharing. Republicans won’t allow that to happen. That leaves only the one remedy to try now, today, with hopes of reducing these, so easily done, killings in the next decade. Limit the availability of guns.
Jar, you should lead your neighborhood into having a big town party where everyone brings their guns to the WalMart parking lot where they are run over by a huge steamroller, crushed and sold off for scrap with the proceeds going to the Community Kitchen. Instead you insist on exacerbating the problem with more gun culture.
The availability of guns is the issue, jar. The mad and the hate and the crazy lone shooter are human manifestations and will remain forever. If you don’t want people shooting other people so easily, readily and often, then lose the fucking guns.
Your usually enlightened human spirit is on the wrong side of this one, jar.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 7:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 973 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 10:14 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 972 of 1184 (895109)
06-08-2022 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 970 by Percy
06-08-2022 9:13 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
I can't really disagree with much of what you post.
Trying to stick to reality, when it comes to handguns there is really only a small difference in effectiveness or a one shot stop between any of the various calibers. For example, for a long time the Israeli Mossad and Air Marshall's choice of weapon was a Beretta Series 70 22LR (Long Rifle) caliber. The gun was small, extremely reliable, extremely accurate and just as in real estate, the three most important factors in handgun effectiveness are location, Location, LOCATION.
Rifles, all rifles and all calibers are far better at one shot stops than any handgun.
Second. Semi-automatic is really not a factor. I can shoot a revolver (almost all revolvers are also semi-automatics) as accurately or more accurately than one of my semi-automatic pistols and reload almost as quickly.
But that takes lots of practice.
It's important to use terms that actually have a specific meaning.
In handguns it's better to talk about revolvers (handguns with a rotating cylinder that holds the cartridges) and pistols (handguns that hold the cartridges in a detachable container called a magazine) than use terms like semi-automatic.
Revolvers have a limited capacity that is dependent on three things; the diameter of the cylinder, the diameter of the cartridge and the strength of the cylinders material. There is only so much area in a cylinder and there has to be enough material around each cartridge hole to withstand the pressures involved during firing.
Pistols though can hold as many cartridges as the length of the magazine will hold. There is no reason that a pistol can not just use a longer magazine and so hold more rounds.
Again, some reality.
Rifles are almost always longer and much harder to conceal than a handgun.
Rifles can be classified by their types similar to what we use in handguns.
There are rifles that use some form of detachable magazine to hold the cartridges and rifles that have a fixed magazine. Usually the fixed magazine is a tube with a spring plunger to force the rounds into the action but the capacity is pretty much limited to the original design. Fixed magazines are also considerably slower to reload than detachable magazines.
Another differentiation point is the type of actions. There are three main types, a bolt action where each cartridge is loaded and ejected by manually cycling the bolt, a lever action where the functions of loading and ejecting spent rounds is from a lever usually making up the trigger guard and hand hold and semi-automatics that use the recoil created by firing a round to eject and reload another cartridge.
The first two generally have a slower rate of fire than the third type but again, with practice the differences become minimal.
While many rifle cartridges are longer than handgun cartridges there are quite a few that are pretty much the same length and size. The most common cartridge for the AK47 and SKS are a great example.
If there are going to be laws passed they need to be specific and stop using really stupid undefinable terms like "assault weapon" or "military grade weapon".
And finally, the laws need to actually be something achievable. We have tried outright banning of sales with drugs and prohibition and prostitution and gambling and ...
Lets not just try yet another doomed to not just fail but make things worse feel good solution.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 970 by Percy, posted 06-08-2022 9:13 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 985 by Percy, posted 06-08-2022 12:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 973 of 1184 (895110)
06-08-2022 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 971 by AZPaul3
06-08-2022 9:57 AM


Re: 9 mm Smoke and Mirrors
So what is the model, method, mechanism. process and procedure that has even a slightly greater than zero chance of working?
Consider our neighbor to the south. There is only ONE gun dealer store in all of Mexico.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 971 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 9:57 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 974 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 10:34 AM jar has not replied
 Message 975 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 10:37 AM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 974 of 1184 (895111)
06-08-2022 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 973 by jar
06-08-2022 10:14 AM


Re: 9 mm Smoke and Mirrors
So what is the model, method, mechanism. process and procedure that has even a slightly greater than zero chance of working?
No idea, but we should try something. This pile of crap isn't going to shovel itself away.
Let's start by repealing the second amendment. Make the manufacture, import, sale, possession of any gun or rifle illegal. Have federal and local law officers confiscate any guns they encounter. Confiscate all guns in dozens of Waco Compound and Ruby Ridge raids all across the country.
Then, after 2 generations, 50 years, we can assess whether we have addressed the issue adequately.
If not, and you gun nuts lose your popguns for nothing, then we'll apologize ... with earnest sincerity.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 973 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 10:14 AM jar has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 975 of 1184 (895113)
06-08-2022 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 973 by jar
06-08-2022 10:14 AM


Re: 9 mm Smoke and Mirrors
There is only ONE gun dealer store in all of Mexico.
What? The biggest fuckin gun store in the whole world is just a walk across the border. What are you talking about?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 973 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 10:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 977 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 11:42 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 976 of 1184 (895115)
06-08-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 969 by jar
06-08-2022 7:58 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
jar writes:
The US needs to address the root causes of the extreme violence so common in the US.
Extreme violence? If the people committing the violence didn't have guns then it wouldn't be extreme violence and gun nuts wouldn't be able to claim that they need the guns for self-defense because the US is an extremely violent country.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 7:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 979 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 11:49 AM Percy has replied

  
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