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Member (Idle past 498 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But I am. I'm asking if you consider all of those Christian clubs to be "true" Christians. What about the "liberal" Christians who don't try to argue away what Jesus said? What about the ones who actually LIVE what Jesus said? I'm not talking about Catholicism ve Protestantism. Nor any of the other clubs within Christianity. Honestly, you're only counting the handful of right-wing fundamentalist wingnuts who agree with your theology, aren't you? You lump the "liberal" Christians who agree with me in with the Hindus and the Mormons and the other heathens, don't you?
Phat writes:
You are the few. We have a few contrarians such as you who don't even believe Jesus is an actual person, but we let you come to the picnics anyway."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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dwise1 writes:
I just saw that again the other day. I think it was in Leo Rosten's The Joys of Yiddish. please take in this piece of Jewish wisdom from the Pirke Avoth, the Sayings of the Fathers:quote: Here's another story he told, in my own words:
Goebbels, the Nazi, says to a Rabbi: "Teach me the Talmud." Rabbi: I don't think you're ready to study Talmud." Goebbels (indignantly): "Why not?" Rabbi: "When a boy asks me to teach him Talmud, I ask him three questions to see if he's ready." Goebbels: "So ask me the questions." Rabbi: "All right. Two men fall down a chimney. One comes out dirty, one comes out clean. Which one washes?" Goebbels: "The dirty one washes, of course." Rabbi (shaking his head): "No. The dirty one looks at the clean one and he says, 'Amazing! We fell down a chimney and didn't get dirty.' So he doesn't wash. The clean one looks at the dirty one and says, 'We sure got dirty falling down that chimney.' So he washes." Goebbels (unimpressed): "Ask me the second question." Rabbi: "Two men fall down a chimney...." Goebbels: "That's the same question." Rabbi (shaking his head): "No. A different chimney. Two different men. Different points of view." Geobbels: "Okay...." Rabbi: "Two men fall down a chimney. One comes out dirty, one comes out clean. Which one washes?" Goebbels (not to be fooled again): "The dirty one washes." Rabbi (shaking his head): "No. The clean one looks at his hands and he says, 'Amazing! We fell down a chimney and didn't get dirty.' So he doesn't wash. The dirty one looks at his hands and says, 'We sure got dirty falling down that chimney.' So he washes." Goebbels (getting angry: "Ask me the third question." Rabbi: "Two men fall down a chimney...." Goebbels: "That's the same question again!" Rabbi (shaking his head): "No. Another different chimney. Two more different men. Two more different points of view." Geobbels: "But... either one washes or the other washes. Those are the only two possibilities." Rabbi: "No. Nobody falls down a chimney and comes out clean. If you couldn't figure that out on the first question, you're not ready to study Talmud.""I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You've never been able to demonstrate that that isn't true. And you've never been able to demonstrate that YOUR god is real. Do you want to hear a modern lie?All Gods are characters in books or figments of our imaginations. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That wouldn't prove anything about God. It would only prove that your faith is real. Lots of people have faith in gods that aren't real. And lots of people have "faith" that isn't real.
Well if you think i'm simply going to sell all that I have in order to prove it to you or anybody else, you will have a long wait. Phat writes:
Wrong on both counts. I didn't "refuse" to pay taxes. I couldn't pay the taxes. I didn't have the money. There's a difference between giving a couple of dollars to the poor and paying thousands in taxes. Besides I think I figured this out...you refused to pay taxes and justified it by giving money to your street friends. And though they are my neighbors and my brothers in the way Jesus spoke of them, they're not my "friends", per se. They're strangers. I seldom see any of them more than once.
Phat writes:
Wrong. There was never anything to "justify". If I hadn't walked away I would have been thrown out.
Then when the government came to seize the house...you justified walking away from it because you were listening to "the message". Phat writes:
It has nothing to do what I want. It's what Jesus wants. And now you want me to do the same thing if I had half a heart."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, YOU are the one who dismisses what's IN the stories.
Why on earth would I listen to jar or you regarding anything Jesus wants when both of you believe that the stories are simply tales told round a campfire? Phat writes:
I have neither the power nor the inclination to hold you to anything. I just wonder how you could reject the only actual source of Jesus' words that we have.
You try and hold me to the book 100%. Phat writes:
In other words, you will *always* look for an easy way out. I will *never* limit myself to a static word-for-word interpretation. And your over-reaction suggests that you feel guilty about it.
Phat writes:
I'm not going to read that. Why do you quote what some goober writes about the Bible when you reject the Bible? Amen, Pastor John. If you're true to form, you don't understand it anyway. If you want it considered, make the points in your own words.
Phat writes:
I don't. Ringo and jar can defend the book as word for word literal..."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Unlikely to happen. Secularists don't march in lock-step.
I will admit to being nervous over the possibility of a one-world secular manifesto. Phat writes:
I don't think that's true.
ringo writes:
I will try and discuss it, but keep in mind that humans, in general, tend to lie. You refuse resolutely to discuss the idea that your apologists are liars. Phat writes:
And in context, that party is the apologists. I would go so far as to say that in any diplomatic situation, lies and exaggerated falsehoods are usually involved by at least one party."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
The collapse of society is rapidly accelerating.
Nonsense."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I have not ditched the concept of belief; I have put it where it belongs - in last place. If there is no evidence, then and only then are you allowed to fall back on belief. Evidence ALWAYS trumps belief.
Your problem initially was in ditching the entire concept of belief. Phat writes:
That's one reaon why I don't believe YOUR faith is real.
I suspect you did it partially because you saw no evidence that believers were willing to go all the way.Phat writes:
Of course. We're a social species. Helping each other improves our chances of survival.
Do you see truth being manifested through secular humanism? Phat writes:
Because those goddamn lying apologists have convinced you that "secular humanist" is a dirty word.
I don't. Phat writes:
No. Why don't you just say what you mean?
You would claim that the truth is found in evidence. I would challenge that and say that the truth is only found in humans and their inner motives and desires.
ringo writes:
See what I mean? What a load of rubbish. Phat writes:
Genesis 2. You call the truth a lie and the lie truth. I'll call you out on this one. What scriptures have I misused recently? And you have continually denied what Jesus said about giving up everything for Him.
Phat writes:
And you really don't see how stupid that sounds? "I don't have enough faith, so I'll just ignore what Jesus said."
I have only questioned the idea that a true Christian (and only them) should give up all that they have. Nobody has that much faith these days, early Apostles and widows with two mites notwithstanding. Phat writes:
Yes. And I have told you this so very, very many times that you should remember it by now: You claim to believe in the guy who told you to do it. I don't feel obligated to do what Long Jon Silver said because I don't believe he ever existed.
Am I so different from you? Phat writes:
I believe that if God existed, He would impress that truth on those who had ears to hear.
I would believe that if God wanted to be understood, He would impress that truth on those who had ears to hear. Phat writes:
What am I in denial of?
Some of us are unknowingly and/or consciously in denial. Pot meet Kettle. Phat writes:
Then what's the point in pretending to believe?
I evaluated the logic and reasonableness of giving every materialistic thing up and rejected it because I did not have the faith of a Raven. Phat writes:
See above. See all of the other times I have answered the same question? What's your excuse? What's your excuse for asking the same stupid question over and over and over again and ignoring the answer?"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's not an interpretation. It's what the Bible says. What scriptures have I misused recently?
ringo writes:
No. I call your (and) jars interpretation of the truth a lie. Genesis 2. You call the truth a lie and the lie truth. Phat writes:
Sure there would. A parent sometimes lies to his child to protect him.
God does not lie. (There would be no reason to do so) Phat writes:
There is no devil in Genesis 2.
And there is no truth in the devil, according to scripture. Phat writes:
And yet you never say anything good about it.
Secular humanism is neither good nor evil. Phat writes:
No. It's man's attempt to get things done without relying on fantasies.
It is simply mans attempt to ignore the "God concept" and figure life out on our own. Phat writes:
Pretty well.
How is that working for us? Phat writes:
Here's a hint for Him: If you want to commune with me, don't threaten to fry me.
Besides....God wants Communion with humanity. Phat writes:
That's just a convenient lie. God wants what you want Him to want.
He is not OK with us simply being indifferent due to "lack of evidence". Phat writes:
You know it is. And by the way, who told tou that unbelief is a default option? You don't believe in Zeus. Why not? Because unbelief is the default option.You don't believe in Quetzalcoatl. Why not? Because unbelief is the default option. You don't believe in Rael. Why not? Because unbelief is the default option. You don't believe in Thor. Why not? Because unbelief is the default option. You don't believe in Brahman. Why not? Because unbelief is the default option. Why do you pretend that belief is a wonderful thing when you have almost as much unbelief as I do?
quoting romans, Phat writes:
No one seeks for God. Not seeking God is the default.
as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; Phat writes:
Fallacy of appeal to popularity. The truth doesn't have to be popular.
You and jar both mention Genesis 2. That view is very much a minority viewpoint. Phat writes:
If you had anything to back up your popular opinion, we could finish with it once and for all. But as long as you continue to repeat the lie, I will continue to expose it as a lie. Yet you say it every darn time we interact."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Mind? I wouldn't even notice. My pension is deposited automatically. My rent is withdrawn automatically. I pay for groceries and whatever else I need with Interac. The only thing I use cash for is laundry and panhandlers.
Maybe you wouldn't mind at all if currency became digital... Phat writes:
You're the only one who seems to be obsessed with being "forced" to pay. You're already forced to pay taxes, aren't you?
... and everyone (rich and poor) was forced to pay their fair share for the common good. Phat writes:
They could still hoard the things with real value, like food. Nobody could hoard anything then."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
Well, Paul commanded the Thessalonians to prove everything. Ringo, you call believing in God a fantasy. Yet, Godcommands those who truly seek Him to prove everything. But remember, the commands of a fantasy are also fantasy.
candle2 writes:
As James told the twelve tribes.
Blind faith is worthless. candle2 writes:
If they have not been fulfilled, you can not count them as being fulfilled.
The Bible contains many prophecies; some havealready been fulfilled, others will soon be fulfilled. candle2 writes:
You don't "know" any such thing. A few decades ago, Hal Lindsey popularized some nonsense about the "beast" of Revelation 13 being the EU. That prediction failed - and now you are predicting that it will unfail. We also know that the EU will slim downto just 10 nations (married in a sense to a powerful universal church). A little over two centuries ago, prophecyy nuts "knew" that Napoleon was the AntiChrist. In the 1930s-40s, they "knew" that Hitler was the AntiChrist. Then they "knew" that Stalin was the AntiChrist. Then the Soviet Union split the offices of General Secretary of the Communist Party and Premier between Brezhnev and Kosigin and spoiled any further predictions of a single Soviet AntiChrist. The predictions have been consistently wrong. They're nothing but an attempt to twist the Bible into confirming your wishful thinking about the modern world."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
Not according to Jesus:
Israel must be existence as a nation before the Second Coming can occur.quote "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
nwr writes:
Or... Anything that remotely resembles the End Times will be seen as a fulfilment by those who want to see it. It seems to me that either the second coming already happened and nobody noticed, or it will never happen."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Are you sure that's vague enough?
I will publically state what I believe is 85% certain to happen in at least some measure. Phat writes:
So you don't think Fiat currency will ever become Ferrari currency again? ... Fiat currency...."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
We have ALWAYS been required to fix it ourselves. If the hippie shows up, He may just fold His arms and remark that since few if any progressives even believed that He existed, they are required to fix it themselves."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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