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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 166 of 1429 (894969)
06-03-2022 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Dredge
06-03-2022 3:45 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Dredge writes:
But it's impossible for anyone to describe any such process....
Message 120

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 3:45 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 167 of 1429 (894975)
06-04-2022 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Dredge
06-03-2022 3:45 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Dredge writes:
Au contraire, by explaining how, you can demonstrate that you know how evolution works. So by all means, fire away - please describe the process involved in the evolution of a novel body plan or organ.
Please respond to the answers that have been provided many times now, instead of ignoring them and just repeating your question over and over again.
The process of evolution has been explained, that changes occur during reproduction (descent with modification), and that the contributors to each new generation are filtered by natural selection.
Working out the specific evolutionary steps in the evolutionary development of any new feature or organism is dependent upon the amount and nature of the available evidence. Of course it is possible to ask unanswerable questions. One need only ask a question about something at a level of detail for which there is no available evidence, which is all you're doing.
You say the inability to answer this question renders questionable whether there was a continuity of evolutionary change, but that's absurd. We know that life is just one successive generation after another. Generations of life for which there is no detailed evidence doesn't mean life happened differently, doesn't mean it was a series of special creations by God, just as not having any evidence of how a house was built doesn't cast doubt about whether they used lumber and nails.
What would you conclude from the absence of evidence of your own life? What are the details of how you spent some randomly selected day back in 2015? Does your inability to answer that question mean that your life wasn't continuous, that you ceased to exist or existed in some other way for those days for which you have no recollection?
In the same way, life didn't stop doing what life does, namely compete and reproduce, during periods for which no evidence survives. And there are many, many such periods. Probably most of evolutionary history has been wiped out or remains forever inaccessible. The same is true of geologic history.
Anyway, please respond to the provided answers instead of mindlessly repeating your question.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 3:45 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 168 of 1429 (894976)
06-04-2022 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Tangle
06-03-2022 4:20 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
You keep trying to steer the discussion from knowing HOW evolution happens.
You know no one can describe HOW novel body plans and organs actually evolve, but you can't bring yourself to admit it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2022 4:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2022 1:06 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 06-04-2022 1:13 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 172 by nwr, posted 06-04-2022 2:25 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 173 by AZPaul3, posted 06-04-2022 6:29 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 174 by AZPaul3, posted 06-04-2022 7:25 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 169 of 1429 (894977)
06-04-2022 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Dredge
06-04-2022 12:54 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Troll writes:
You keep trying to steer the discussion from knowing HOW evolution happens.
I'm don't need a discussion on it I just need you to say whether you accept the evidence that evolution has happened or not. Yes or no is fine. Why so shy?
You know no one can describe HOW novel body plans and organs actually evolve, but you can't bring yourself to admit it.
Answer my question and we can then get into the how of evolutionary theory.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2022 12:54 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2022 1:37 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 190 by Dredge, posted 06-21-2022 9:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 170 of 1429 (894978)
06-04-2022 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by marc9000
06-03-2022 8:30 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
m9k writes:
What you've done is effectively shown that evolution / atheism has very comparable faith, hope, unanswered questions etc as does Christianity.
Funny, I must have missed that, I haven't seen him do anything but ask inane questions. Science has unanswered question and seeks answers in a methodical way using evidence and Christianity says it already has the answers but they are magic and invisible and imaginary.
m9k writes:
That's why they're so angry.
School shootings make me angry, corrupt politicians make me angry, but unanswered questions just make me curious. Failure to effectively communicate frustrates me, but someone like you, who thinks evolution and atheism are connected and that they are in any way comparable to "faith and hope" scares the crap out of me.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by marc9000, posted 06-03-2022 8:30 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by marc9000, posted 06-05-2022 3:54 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 191 by Dredge, posted 06-21-2022 9:53 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 171 of 1429 (894979)
06-04-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Dredge
06-04-2022 12:54 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Dredge writes:
You keep trying to steer the discussion....
You keep trying to avoid discussion. Message 120
I'm not going anywhere. You can run but you can't hide.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2022 12:54 PM Dredge has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(4)
Message 172 of 1429 (894982)
06-04-2022 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Dredge
06-04-2022 12:54 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
You know no one can describe HOW novel body plans and organs actually evolve, but you can't bring yourself to admit it.
It's really quite simple.
A paleontologist looks at a newly discovered fossil, and says "I'm going to call that a new body plan." And, with that, a new body plan came into existence.
The mistake is to assume that a body plan came first, and then a body was built to that plan. It doesn't happen that way. So called "body plans" are identified afterwards. It is really we humans who attempt to impose the idea of a plan on what we find.
Or, to say it all differently, there isn't anything there that needs explaining.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2022 12:54 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 173 of 1429 (894987)
06-04-2022 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Dredge
06-04-2022 12:54 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
You know no one can describe HOW novel body plans and organs actually evolve, but you can't bring yourself to admit it.
Of course we know the how of the changes in evolution. You don’t care to acknowledge them without the details of trillions of exact schematics of past change. Fuck you.
The how of novel critters starts in the genome. The proteins that make everything and make them in exact detail are created by transcribing the genome. Every novelty starts with differences in the specific chemical alignment of billions of molecules in 20,000 +- genes, the genome that models the critter. Any change in sequence is either passed to offspring or not. The most minor chemical change can have major effects with other changes and other chemicals in the resultant critter.
There are entire libraries of the How these chemicals work, How the genome changes, How it operates with very specific details on exactly what molecules do to what molecules to make new molecules in exact specific detail. The result of accumulated changes over thousands, tens of thousands, millions of generations is evolution.
So this is the How. You want finer details of any step just ask. We can get into beneficial vs neutral vs deleterious. We can get into insertions, SNIPs and polymorphisms. We can get into environment, fitness and natural selection.
So. No more of your BS obfuscation. You know the how. You can no longer say different.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2022 12:54 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Dredge, posted 06-21-2022 10:52 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 174 of 1429 (894989)
06-04-2022 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Dredge
06-04-2022 12:54 PM


Liver, Hold the Onions.
Since we’re on the subject, have you looked into the evolution of the liver? I mean a real deep dive into the paleontology. I think you might be surprised at how far back that function can be traced.
I know, I know, we don’t have an unending trace of every amino change in every gene in every generation from 800 million years to the present. In your dishonest intellect that means evolution fails. So, fuck you.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2022 12:54 PM Dredge has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 175 of 1429 (894998)
06-05-2022 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Tanypteryx
06-04-2022 1:11 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Funny, I must have missed that, I haven't seen him do anything but ask inane questions. Science has unanswered question and seeks answers in a methodical way using evidence and Christianity says it already has the answers but they are magic and invisible and imaginary.
Percy said this above;
quote
Probably most of evolutionary history has been wiped out or remains forever inaccessible. The same is true of geologic history.
It's not possible for science to seek answers in a methodical way for its many assumptions that are forever inaccessible. Most, if not all, of the questions Dredge has raised have no chance of ever being accessible to the limited minds of man.
There seem to be several scientific (atheistic) theories about the origin of the universe, the "big bang". Doesn't one say that all matter 13.8 billion years ago existed in an area the size of a pin head, very dense of course, before it exploded and became all the stars and planets in the universe? And you mock Christianity for believing in magic and imaginary?
School shootings make me angry, corrupt politicians make me angry, but unanswered questions just make me curious. Failure to effectively communicate frustrates me, but someone like you, who thinks evolution and atheism are connected and that they are in any way comparable to "faith and hope" scares the crap out of me.
What scares me is how publicly funded school science classes tell their captive audience school children that evolution and atheism have absolutely no connection to each other , while Intelligent design and Christianity are closely related. But it doesn't scare me too much, most kids are smart enough to see through that lie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-04-2022 1:11 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by AZPaul3, posted 06-05-2022 5:00 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 178 by jar, posted 06-05-2022 5:44 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 193 by Dredge, posted 06-21-2022 10:46 AM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 176 of 1429 (895001)
06-05-2022 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by marc9000
06-05-2022 3:54 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
​It's not possible for science to seek answers in a methodical way for its many assumptions that are forever inaccessible.
Of course it's possible. It has been done. Your intellect is too limited to see how.
What guides us is not what is missing but what we see. It doesn't matter that 99.44% +- of all history is lost to us. In the hundreds of millions of fossils we do have we can see a clear and consistent evolution.
The fossils we have give us ToE. And every new find reinforces that theory. If you want to fight the ToE then you have fight the fossils we do have, not your twisted rendition of what doesn't exist anymore.
If we never see what is hidden in the past it makes no difference. We have entire universities and libraries full of what we do know and that is an overwhelming case for evolution.
And you mock Christianity for believing in magic and imaginary?
Yep. The difference which you so blithely ignore is that the big bang is grounded in observations and the logical extensions of those observations.
Your cult is just pure fantasy. No facts. No logic. No base. All pure make believe.
I know. You don't care for the efficacy of observation and you certainly don't believe in math. Facts that dispute your god fantasies cannot be acknowledged no matter how real.
What scares me is how publicly funded school science classes tell their captive audience school children that evolution and atheism have absolutely no connection to each other ...
The only connection is in the mind of the butt hurt christian losing psychological and political control over the society. You're no longer in control of the classroom agenda and it pisses you off bad.
Good. Be scared. Think of the last 200 years of religious loss. Think what we're going to do to you in the next 200.
But it doesn't scare me too much, most kids are smart enough to see through that lie.
Give a 16 year old a bible to read and you have made an atheist for life.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by marc9000, posted 06-05-2022 3:54 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 177 of 1429 (895002)
06-05-2022 5:27 PM


Just wondering marc, where is your equivalent of the fossil record? Where is your geology, palaeontology, molecular genetics, embryology? Where is your taxonomy and cladistics?
In short, we've shown you ours, you show is yours.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-05-2022 6:27 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 180 by marc9000, posted 06-05-2022 8:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 178 of 1429 (895003)
06-05-2022 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by marc9000
06-05-2022 3:54 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Remember marc, it is not Christianity that has any issues with either the fact of Evolution or with the fact that the Theory of Evolution is the only explanation for what we current and past living critters.
It is only the Christian Cult of Wilful Ignorance and Deceit that has any issues with either the fact of Evolution or with the fact that the Theory of Evolution is the only explanation for what we current and past living critters.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by marc9000, posted 06-05-2022 3:54 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(4)
Message 179 of 1429 (895004)
06-05-2022 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Tangle
06-05-2022 5:27 PM


In short, we've shown you ours, you show is yours.
Actually he has shown us his. It's his guns and willingness to kill us for not believing anything he says, and of course his intentionally misinterpreted bible and 2nd amendment of the U.S. constitution. He's the American Taliban.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2022 5:27 PM Tangle has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 180 of 1429 (895005)
06-05-2022 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Tangle
06-05-2022 5:27 PM


Just wondering marc, where is your equivalent of the fossil record? Where is your geology, palaeontology, molecular genetics, embryology? Where is your taxonomy and cladistics?
You'll find them at Ken Ham's Creation Museum and Answers In Genesis website. A lot of reading there.
In short, we've shown you ours, you show is yours.
Yes I've been seeing yours from a hundred or so posters at this site for about 13 years now. They all have one thing in common, they disregard everything except atheism, everything except rearrangement and time, the only things about science the human mind can understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2022 5:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by xongsmith, posted 06-06-2022 12:55 AM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 06-06-2022 1:34 AM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 183 by Tangle, posted 06-06-2022 3:11 AM marc9000 has not replied

  
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