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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 151 of 1429 (894939)
06-03-2022 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Tanypteryx
06-01-2022 10:56 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
please describe the process involved in the evolution of an amphibian's double-circulation heart from a fish's single-circulation heart, including the steps involved how natural selection and what environmental pressures produced those steps.
Tanypteryx writes:
Reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat. Selective pressures: finding food, finding a mate, reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat.
It's okay to admit that you can't describe the process involved in the evolution of an amphibian's double-circulation heart from a fish's single-circulation heart - no one possibly could, since it (was alleged to have) occurred millions of years ago and can't be repeated.
No one can know how that (alleged) evolution even got to first base ... or even what first base was.
Dredge writes:
"please describe how a whale's blowhole evolved. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced each of those steps.

Please describe how birds evolved from reptiles. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced those steps.

Please describe how amphibians evolved from fish. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced those steps."
Tanypteryx writes:
Reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat. Selective pressures: finding food, finding a mate, reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat.
It's okay to admit that you can't describe the process involved in the evolution of any of the examples I mentioned - no one possibly could, since they (were alleged to have) occurred millions of years ago and can't be repeated.
No one can know how those (alleged) evolutionary transitions even got to first base ... or even what first base was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-01-2022 10:56 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 152 of 1429 (894940)
06-03-2022 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Dredge
06-03-2022 8:05 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Either your comprehension skills are sorely lacking or you're a troll. You don't seem to realize how severely you just contradicted yourself. Here you are in Message 142 agreeing with AnswersInGenitals's point that not knowing the details of how a specific thing was done doesn't mean you don't understand the process:
Dredge writes:
Answersingenitals writes:
If you are unable to provide every bit of detail (and proof of that detail) asked for, does that mean that we haven't the foggiest idea of how long extinct volcanoes, glacial lakes, or pyramids came to be?
No.
And here you are in Message 143, the very next message, again making the type of argument that you just agreed was invalid:
Your reply strongly suggests that you cannot describe the process involved in the evolution of novel body plans and organs, which in turn suggests you don't know how evolution works.
Please get a clue.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 8:05 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 153 of 1429 (894943)
06-03-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Dredge
06-03-2022 8:05 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Your reply strongly suggests that you cannot describe the process involved in the evolution of novel body plans and organs....
I did describe it. If there's something you don't understand, ask questions. Don't just assume that everybody else is a dim-witted as you.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 8:05 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 154 of 1429 (894945)
06-03-2022 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by AZPaul3
05-30-2022 7:21 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
AZPaul3 writes:
idiot.
A not altogether accurate assessment ... technically, an idiot is someone who can neither speak, nor read nor write.
A scientific theory like ToE becomes the searchlight and describes how any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record proceeded. Not in molecular detail but in enough detail to see natures workings.
... and yet no one can describe the process involved in the evolution of even one novel organ or body plan.
Sounds like the explanatory power of ToE is rather limited.

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2022 7:21 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 06-03-2022 12:04 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 06-03-2022 1:31 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 155 of 1429 (894947)
06-03-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Dredge
06-03-2022 12:00 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
... and yet no one can describe the process involved in the evolution of even one novel organ or body plan.
Message 120
Don't just deny, deny, deny. Discuss. What do you not understand?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 12:00 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Dredge, posted 06-21-2022 3:20 PM ringo has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 156 of 1429 (894948)
06-03-2022 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Tangle
05-30-2022 8:05 AM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
119
Dredge writes:
Can you describe how even one macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record proceeded?
Tangle writes:
Abstract
In the past few decades, many new discoveries have provided numerous transitional fossils that show the evolution of hoofed mammals from their primitive ancestors. We can now document the origin of the odd-toed perissodactyls, their early evolution when horses, brontotheres, rhinoceroses, and tapirs can barely be distinguished, and the subsequent evolution and radiation of these groups into distinctive lineages with many different species and interesting evolutionary transformations through time. Similarly, we can document the evolution of the even-toed artiodactyls from their earliest roots and their great radiation into pigs, peccaries, hippos, camels, and ruminants. We can trace the complex family histories in the camels and giraffes, whose earliest ancestors did not have humps or long necks and looked nothing like the modern descendants. Even the Proboscidea and Sirenia show many transitional fossils linking them to ancient ancestors that look nothing like modern elephants or manatees. All these facts show that creationist attacks on the fossil record of horses and other hoofed mammals are completely erroneous and deceptive. Their critiques of the evidence of hoofed mammal evolution are based entirely on reading trade books and quoting them out of context, not on any firsthand knowledge or training in paleontology or looking at the actual fossils.
Evolutionary Transitions in the Fossil Record of Terrestrial Hoofed Mammals - Evolution: Education and Outreach
Fail. The link you provided doesn't answer my question. It presents evidence of certain evolution transitions, but doesn't mention one word about HOW nature actually produced any of those transitions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2022 8:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2022 1:04 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 157 of 1429 (894949)
06-03-2022 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Percy
05-31-2022 11:23 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Percy writes:
You believe life on earth evolved because you know what evolution looks like in the fossil record, and you know what evolution looks like because you know how it works.
I don't even know that the "evolution" evident in the fossil record is the result of a contiguous biological process, much less know what produced it.
Do we know the details of how the whale's blowhole migrated to the top of its head in terms of mutations, matings and morphological changes? No, of course not. But we still know how evolution works.
Guest Speaker: "I can't describe the process involved in splitting an atom. But I still know how to split an atom."
Audience: fits of laughter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Percy, posted 05-31-2022 11:23 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 158 of 1429 (894950)
06-03-2022 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by marc9000
06-03-2022 8:30 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
marc9000 writes:
What you've done is effectively shown that evolution / atheism has very comparable faith, hope, unanswered questions etc as does Christianity. That's why they're so angry.
Oh dear ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by marc9000, posted 06-03-2022 8:30 AM marc9000 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 159 of 1429 (894951)
06-03-2022 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Dredge
06-03-2022 12:32 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Troll writes:
Fail. The link you provided doesn't answer my question. It presents evidence of certain evolution transitions, but doesn't mention one word about HOW nature actually produced any of those transitions.
So, before I waste more of my time, have you accepted that those transitions *did* happen?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 12:32 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 2:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 160 of 1429 (894953)
06-03-2022 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Dredge
06-03-2022 12:00 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge:
and yet no one can describe the process involved in the evolution of even one novel organ or body plan.
Dredge:
It presents evidence of certain evolution transitions, but doesn't mention one word about HOW nature actually produced any of those transitions.
Do you doubt that it happened? Based on what? Based on how bad your tummy feels when you think on it too hard?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 12:00 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 161 of 1429 (894956)
06-03-2022 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Tangle
06-03-2022 1:04 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Tangle writes:
So, before I waste more of my time, have you accepted that those transitions *did* happen?
Irrelevant to my argument.
What matters is that you can't describe the process involved in the evolution of any novel body plan or organ. You wouldn't even know where to start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2022 1:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2022 2:51 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 164 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-03-2022 3:50 PM Dredge has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 162 of 1429 (894957)
06-03-2022 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Dredge
06-03-2022 2:36 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Troll writes:
Irrelevant to my argument.
But highly relevant to mine and the ToE. If you don't accept that those transition happened there's little point me explaining how.
So do you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 2:36 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 3:45 PM Tangle has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 163 of 1429 (894962)
06-03-2022 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Tangle
06-03-2022 2:51 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Tangle writes:
But highly relevant to mine and the ToE. If you don't accept that those transition happened there's little point me explaining how.
Au contraire, by explaining how, you can demonstrate that you know how evolution works. So by all means, fire away - please describe the process involved in the evolution of a novel body plan or organ.
But it's impossible for anyone to describe any such process, bcoz said processes happened millions of years ago and cannot be repeated ... which is why I argue that no one can claim to know how evolution works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2022 2:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2022 4:20 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 06-03-2022 9:24 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 06-04-2022 12:02 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 164 of 1429 (894963)
06-03-2022 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Dredge
06-03-2022 2:36 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Troll writes:
What matters is that you can't describe the process involved in the evolution of any novel body plan or organ.
What matters is that you can't describe any novel body plan or organ. I don't think you can point to a single novel body plan or novel organ. The evolutionary process is descent with modification, not poof with modification.
Troll writes:
You wouldn't even know where to start.
Well it's obvious you don't know where to start to describe novel body plans or novel organs.
I would start with organisms reproducing with new mutations, selection, repeat. Selective pressures: finding food, finding a mate, reproduction, mutation, selection, repeat. No novel body plans, no novel organs, just descent with modification.
ABE: And just for clarification, a novel body plan or organ would be something completely new showing up in one generation. We all know that parents reproduce offspring that are almost identical in body plan with almost identical organs. That's why it's called REproduction not NOVELproduction.

Edited by Tanypteryx, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 2:36 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Dredge, posted 06-21-2022 4:55 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 165 of 1429 (894965)
06-03-2022 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Dredge
06-03-2022 3:45 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Troll writes:
Au contraire, by explaining how, you can demonstrate that you know how evolution works. So by all means, fire away - please describe the process involved in the evolution of a novel body plan or organ.

But it's impossible for anyone to describe any such process, bcoz said processes happened millions of years ago and cannot be repeated ... which is why I argue that no one can claim to know how evolution works.
I've shown you the evidence that science has for the evolution of hoofed mammals. Having read that (ha!) do you accept that hoofed mammals evolved in that way?
If you do, we can move on to the how of evolution.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 3:45 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2022 12:54 PM Tangle has replied

  
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