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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2550 of 3207 (880971)
08-15-2020 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2549 by Sarah Bellum
08-15-2020 12:52 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
SB writes:
I find it depressing to hear people say even great physicists (or other scientists, scholars, etc.) can be wrong.
I understand your feelings on this but being wrong is part of the process. Until the experimenters found Higgs's Boson, no one knew whether he was right or wrong about it - even him. If it wasn't there he'd be devastated but no-one would think he was wrong in trying.
Newton was as mad as a sack of monkeys most of the time, being wrong about alchemy (and god) but he was mostly right about gravity. The bit he got wrong Einstein fixed, but he then got his sums wrong too with his cosmological constant - and seemingly regretted it ever after.
It's a different kind of wrong to the way creationists are wrong though. It's a misstep on a long developmental road. Creationism is going nowhere but backwards.
A mate of mine did a PhD and proved all his original ideas for it wrong. He was still awarded the PhD because often proving something to be wrong is a necessary step in understanding the next step. Best if you prove yourself wrong tho'
It's harsh, but necessary because some ideas are just wrong when tested. That's how knowledge grows.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2549 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-15-2020 12:52 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2551 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-15-2020 1:38 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2557 of 3207 (880982)
08-15-2020 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2556 by ICANT
08-15-2020 4:04 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
So the reason for the universe existing would be that it created itself.
But it is still created requiring a creator.
No.
I think that would be an impossibility. But maybe you could explain it to me.
Don't be ridiculous, if I could I wouldn't be here and you couldn't possibly understand it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2556 by ICANT, posted 08-15-2020 4:04 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2559 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 12:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2561 of 3207 (880991)
08-16-2020 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2559 by ICANT
08-16-2020 12:39 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
You said the universe created itself.
I said that Hawking and others believes that the universe creates itself. Like you, I haven't a clue.
The only way either of us can understand this high level cosmology is by having the same level of mathematical understanding as they have - or something close to it. I don't have it and neither do you.
Oh I think if you could explain how the universe could create itself I could understand it.
Hawking published his work you know - and I don't mean his popular science books, I mean his hard research, if you really want to know about it, go read it and show where he's wrong. Good luck with that.
All I'm doing here is pointing out that you are a liar when you continue to say that Hawking believed in a creator.
Also Krauss
quote:
A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing is a non-fiction book by the physicist Lawrence M. Krauss, initially published on January 10, 2012 by Free Press. It discusses modern cosmogony and its implications for the debate about the existence of God. The main theme of the book is how "we have discovered that all signs suggest a universe that could and plausibly did arise from a deeper nothinginvolving the absence of space itself andwhich may one day return to nothing via processes that may not only be comprehensible but also processes that do not require any external control or direction."[1][2]
A Universe from Nothing - Wikipedia
Krauss is as rabid an atheist as I am, does he belive in a creator too?
Attempting to recruit celebrity cosmologists into your belief system that don't share your beliefs at all is dishonest and you know it.
If you're at all interested my position on all this is best summed up by Sorensen
"To explain why something exists, we standardly appeal to the existence of something else... For instance, if we answer 'There is something because the Universal Designer wanted there to be something', then our explanation takes for granted the existence of the Universal Designer. Someone who poses the question in a comprehensive way will not grant the existence of the Universal Designer as a starting point. If the explanation cannot begin with some entity, then it is hard to see how any explanation is feasible. Some philosophers conclude 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' is unanswerable. They think the question stumps us by imposing an impossible explanatory demand, namely, 'Deduce the existence of something without using any existential premises'. Logicians should feel no more ashamed of their inability to perform this deduction than geometers should feel ashamed at being unable to square the circle."
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2559 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 12:39 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2578 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 11:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2582 of 3207 (881051)
08-17-2020 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2578 by ICANT
08-16-2020 11:51 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
Either the universe has existed eternally.
OR
The universe began to exist.
If it began to exist something had to create it whether it was Hawking's instanton, 2 branes hitting each other, God, or something else.
None of those things make any sense to non-cosmologists. A universe existing forever is not understandable and neither is one popping into existence by itself. Something causing it to happen - your's or somebody else's god - does not help us either as it simply creates an infinite regress of what created the god.
The question can not be answered. The concept of 'nothing' makes no sense to us. There is nothing outside the universe yet the universe is expanding into it. We do not have the tools to understand, but that's no reason to irrational invent a uncased, cause let alone grovel on your knees to worship it. That's pagan superstition.
Tangle writes:
Krauss is as rabid an atheist as I am, does he belive in a creator too?
ICANT writes:
Sure his nothing was relativistic quantum fields.
Which is not A Creator is it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2578 by ICANT, posted 08-16-2020 11:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2585 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2020 11:17 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2589 of 3207 (881069)
08-17-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2585 by ICANT
08-17-2020 11:17 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
So what caused the uncaused cause ICANT?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2585 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2020 11:17 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2592 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2020 12:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2594 of 3207 (881080)
08-17-2020 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2592 by ICANT
08-17-2020 12:59 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
I propose an eternal existing universe just not in the form we see it today.
The Bible is a book that tells me how God took the existing energy and formed the universe and everything in it out of that energy.
Where did that god come from ICANT? Where did the ,existing energy come from?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2592 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2020 12:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2599 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 2:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2600 of 3207 (881135)
08-18-2020 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2599 by ICANT
08-18-2020 2:20 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
Both are eternal.
You can not create nor destroy energy you can only change its form.
You just doubled your problem. Declaring them eternal doesn't solve anything. Two uncaused causes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2599 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 2:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2601 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 5:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2602 of 3207 (881154)
08-18-2020 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2601 by ICANT
08-18-2020 5:35 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
This universe exists in His universe
Right, so what created his universe?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2601 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 5:35 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2604 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 5:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2605 of 3207 (881157)
08-18-2020 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2604 by ICANT
08-18-2020 5:58 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:
What part of eternal do you not understand?
Like you, that would be all of it.
'Eternal' makes as much sense as 'nothing'. Neither have meaning, both are human inventions that we can't understand using normal language, and in your case you just plonk a god in there so that you don't have to think further about it. The uncaused cause - just further back.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2604 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 5:58 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2786 of 3207 (894687)
05-26-2022 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2785 by EWolf
05-26-2022 4:46 PM


EWolf writes:
What do we do about the fact that we were told that God exist?
I heard that some bloke said something weird to a few other blokes about 2,000 years ago. Sadly the first bloke got himself killed by upsetting the local bosses.
That would have been the end of that except that 300 years later a pagan Roman emperor decided it would be good politics to create a new religion to join his territories together.
The rest is, well, you know the rest.
Where did our worth, dignity, and our right originate?
A lot of people reckon Allah did it. But it might have been Ik Onkar?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2785 by EWolf, posted 05-26-2022 4:46 PM EWolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3176 by EWolf, posted 09-16-2022 8:19 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 2812 of 3207 (894762)
05-28-2022 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2811 by nwr
05-28-2022 3:05 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
nwr writes:
if you and many others were to actually live as Jesus taught, I would be mightily impressed.
That's one big problem.
wwjd doesn't seem to be a question they ask themselves.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2811 by nwr, posted 05-28-2022 3:05 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2813 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 3:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 2815 of 3207 (894767)
05-28-2022 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2813 by Phat
05-28-2022 3:27 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Phat writes:
Do you really agree with ringos hypothetical in that the global body of Christians should give it all up? And by that I mean materialistically.
It's not Ringo's hypothesis is it? It's Jesus's teaching. It's what he asks of his followers.
You know what he says, it's in your book, but you can't do it so you pretend to yourself that it wasn't what he said.
It's a daunting concept to give up one's retirement, for example.
It's impossible to imagine in today's society. That's why you pretend Christians try to ignore it. But it's what Jesus asks of you.
His way was supposed to be hard wasn't it? How can you believe what you believe but ignore this because it's hard?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2813 by Phat, posted 05-28-2022 3:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2851 of 3207 (894923)
06-02-2022 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2850 by Son Goku
06-02-2022 4:13 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
Son Goku writes:
Just to say this isn't a closely tied to religion in Ireland as I think it is in the US. Opposition to abortion is still pretty high amongst atheists in Ireland. When I was an undergrad the head of the anti-abortion league in my uni was an ardent atheist.
Yes, the ethics of abortion are not restricted to those with religious beliefs. It's concerns us all.
I have to say that I'm personally uncomfortable with the current situation where we devolve the decision to the woman's right to choose and arbitrary time periods.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2850 by Son Goku, posted 06-02-2022 4:13 PM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2852 by AZPaul3, posted 06-02-2022 5:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2853 of 3207 (894925)
06-02-2022 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2852 by AZPaul3
06-02-2022 5:48 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
AZP writes:
What remedies would you suggest?
I don't have any. Some problems don't have simple answers, but I'm uncomfortable ending life for convenience.
One day we'll look back on these practices and shudder.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2852 by AZPaul3, posted 06-02-2022 5:48 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2854 by jar, posted 06-02-2022 7:28 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 2855 by Theodoric, posted 06-02-2022 7:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 2856 of 3207 (894930)
06-03-2022 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 2854 by jar
06-02-2022 7:28 PM


Re: Ringo and Jar. Two peas in a pod
jar writes:
I'm not sure 'convenience' is a factor in very many abortions.
I'm pretty sure it is. But I guess it depends what you think 'convenience' means.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2854 by jar, posted 06-02-2022 7:28 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2862 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2022 9:14 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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