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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
SB writes: I find it depressing to hear people say even great physicists (or other scientists, scholars, etc.) can be wrong. I understand your feelings on this but being wrong is part of the process. Until the experimenters found Higgs's Boson, no one knew whether he was right or wrong about it - even him. If it wasn't there he'd be devastated but no-one would think he was wrong in trying. Newton was as mad as a sack of monkeys most of the time, being wrong about alchemy (and god) but he was mostly right about gravity. The bit he got wrong Einstein fixed, but he then got his sums wrong too with his cosmological constant - and seemingly regretted it ever after. It's a different kind of wrong to the way creationists are wrong though. It's a misstep on a long developmental road. Creationism is going nowhere but backwards. A mate of mine did a PhD and proved all his original ideas for it wrong. He was still awarded the PhD because often proving something to be wrong is a necessary step in understanding the next step. Best if you prove yourself wrong tho' It's harsh, but necessary because some ideas are just wrong when tested. That's how knowledge grows.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
ICANT writes: So the reason for the universe existing would be that it created itself. But it is still created requiring a creator. No.
I think that would be an impossibility. But maybe you could explain it to me. Don't be ridiculous, if I could I wouldn't be here and you couldn't possibly understand it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
ICANT writes: You said the universe created itself. I said that Hawking and others believes that the universe creates itself. Like you, I haven't a clue. The only way either of us can understand this high level cosmology is by having the same level of mathematical understanding as they have - or something close to it. I don't have it and neither do you.
Oh I think if you could explain how the universe could create itself I could understand it. Hawking published his work you know - and I don't mean his popular science books, I mean his hard research, if you really want to know about it, go read it and show where he's wrong. Good luck with that. All I'm doing here is pointing out that you are a liar when you continue to say that Hawking believed in a creator. Also Krauss
quote: A Universe from Nothing - Wikipedia Krauss is as rabid an atheist as I am, does he belive in a creator too? Attempting to recruit celebrity cosmologists into your belief system that don't share your beliefs at all is dishonest and you know it. If you're at all interested my position on all this is best summed up by Sorensen "To explain why something exists, we standardly appeal to the existence of something else... For instance, if we answer 'There is something because the Universal Designer wanted there to be something', then our explanation takes for granted the existence of the Universal Designer. Someone who poses the question in a comprehensive way will not grant the existence of the Universal Designer as a starting point. If the explanation cannot begin with some entity, then it is hard to see how any explanation is feasible. Some philosophers conclude 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' is unanswerable. They think the question stumps us by imposing an impossible explanatory demand, namely, 'Deduce the existence of something without using any existential premises'. Logicians should feel no more ashamed of their inability to perform this deduction than geometers should feel ashamed at being unable to square the circle." Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
ICANT writes: Either the universe has existed eternally.OR The universe began to exist. If it began to exist something had to create it whether it was Hawking's instanton, 2 branes hitting each other, God, or something else. None of those things make any sense to non-cosmologists. A universe existing forever is not understandable and neither is one popping into existence by itself. Something causing it to happen - your's or somebody else's god - does not help us either as it simply creates an infinite regress of what created the god. The question can not be answered. The concept of 'nothing' makes no sense to us. There is nothing outside the universe yet the universe is expanding into it. We do not have the tools to understand, but that's no reason to irrational invent a uncased, cause let alone grovel on your knees to worship it. That's pagan superstition.
Tangle writes:
Krauss is as rabid an atheist as I am, does he belive in a creator too? ICANT writes: Sure his nothing was relativistic quantum fields. Which is not A Creator is it? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
So what caused the uncaused cause ICANT?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
ICANT writes: I propose an eternal existing universe just not in the form we see it today.The Bible is a book that tells me how God took the existing energy and formed the universe and everything in it out of that energy. Where did that god come from ICANT? Where did the ,existing energy come from?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
ICANT writes: Both are eternal. You can not create nor destroy energy you can only change its form. You just doubled your problem. Declaring them eternal doesn't solve anything. Two uncaused causes.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
ICANT writes: This universe exists in His universe Right, so what created his universe?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
ICANT writes: What part of eternal do you not understand? Like you, that would be all of it. 'Eternal' makes as much sense as 'nothing'. Neither have meaning, both are human inventions that we can't understand using normal language, and in your case you just plonk a god in there so that you don't have to think further about it. The uncaused cause - just further back.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
EWolf writes: What do we do about the fact that we were told that God exist? I heard that some bloke said something weird to a few other blokes about 2,000 years ago. Sadly the first bloke got himself killed by upsetting the local bosses. That would have been the end of that except that 300 years later a pagan Roman emperor decided it would be good politics to create a new religion to join his territories together. The rest is, well, you know the rest.
Where did our worth, dignity, and our right originate?
A lot of people reckon Allah did it. But it might have been Ik Onkar?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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nwr writes: if you and many others were to actually live as Jesus taught, I would be mightily impressed. That's one big problem. wwjd doesn't seem to be a question they ask themselves.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Phat writes: Do you really agree with ringos hypothetical in that the global body of Christians should give it all up? And by that I mean materialistically. It's not Ringo's hypothesis is it? It's Jesus's teaching. It's what he asks of his followers. You know what he says, it's in your book, but you can't do it so you pretend to yourself that it wasn't what he said. It's a daunting concept to give up one's retirement, for example.
It's impossible to imagine in today's society. That's why you pretend Christians try to ignore it. But it's what Jesus asks of you. His way was supposed to be hard wasn't it? How can you believe what you believe but ignore this because it's hard?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Son Goku writes: Just to say this isn't a closely tied to religion in Ireland as I think it is in the US. Opposition to abortion is still pretty high amongst atheists in Ireland. When I was an undergrad the head of the anti-abortion league in my uni was an ardent atheist. Yes, the ethics of abortion are not restricted to those with religious beliefs. It's concerns us all. I have to say that I'm personally uncomfortable with the current situation where we devolve the decision to the woman's right to choose and arbitrary time periods.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
AZP writes: What remedies would you suggest? I don't have any. Some problems don't have simple answers, but I'm uncomfortable ending life for convenience.One day we'll look back on these practices and shudder. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
jar writes: I'm not sure 'convenience' is a factor in very many abortions. I'm pretty sure it is. But I guess it depends what you think 'convenience' means.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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