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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 121 of 1429 (894827)
05-30-2022 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Dredge
05-29-2022 9:56 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
... but what a pity no one can prove that known micro-evolutionary mechanisms are responsible for producing the macro-evolutionary transitions evident in the fossil record.
And nobody can prove that micro-walking can take you macro-distances? Yawn.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Dredge, posted 05-29-2022 9:56 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 122 of 1429 (894828)
05-30-2022 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dredge
05-30-2022 7:31 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
How could anyone know how to produce eukaryotes from prokaryotes without actually doing it?
I know how to swim the Atlantic. Doesn't mean I can do it.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dredge, posted 05-30-2022 7:31 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 123 of 1429 (894831)
05-30-2022 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Dredge
05-29-2022 9:32 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
I'm starting to think you weren't kidding about your IQ.
I know how flight works. I understand aerodynamic principals, but that doesn't mean I can build a jet airliner or fly one.
You seem unable to grasp the simple fact that macroevolution is just lots of microevolution, so it is not a separate process. Repeatedly asking us to explain it to you is just lame.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Dredge, posted 05-29-2022 9:32 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 7:18 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 124 of 1429 (894851)
05-31-2022 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tanypteryx
05-30-2022 2:04 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Hang on, let me get this straight ... you claim to know how evolution works, but you can't describe the process involved in any of the macro-evolutionary transitions I mentioned?
Can you describe the process involved in any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-30-2022 2:04 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-31-2022 10:17 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 05-31-2022 12:18 PM Dredge has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 125 of 1429 (894858)
05-31-2022 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Dredge
05-31-2022 7:18 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
you can't describe the process involved in any of the macro-evolutionary transitions I mentioned?
The process involved in evolutionary transitions is microevolution.
You didn't "mention" any specific species transitions and you have been told, repeatedly, that there is no such process as macroevolution.
Dredge writes:
Can you describe the process involved in any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record?
No, because the process involved in evolutionary transition in the fossil record is microevolution.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 7:18 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Dredge, posted 06-01-2022 9:53 AM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 137 by Dredge, posted 06-01-2022 10:09 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 126 of 1429 (894859)
05-31-2022 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dredge
05-26-2022 10:18 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
...but until someone actually produces a eukaryote from a prokaryote, they can't claim to know how that evolution happened.
Why not?
I know how climbing mountains happens.
But I've never been atop Everest.
I know how lawn mowers work.
But I've never built a small engine.
I know how heavier-than-air flight happens.
But I've never designed an airplane.
These hills your choosing to die on... seems awfully easy to flatten.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Dredge, posted 05-26-2022 10:18 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Dredge, posted 06-22-2022 12:14 PM Stile has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 127 of 1429 (894860)
05-31-2022 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dredge
05-30-2022 7:31 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
There is no contradiction at all. I can accept that life on earth evolved without knowing (or anyone knowing) the first thing about how evolution works.
You believe life on earth evolved because you know what evolution looks like in the fossil record, and you know what evolution looks like because you know how it works.
I think what you meant to say, since it would be consistent with what you just said previously, is that we don't know the details of how it evolved. We don't the know the specific mutations or the specific evolutionary selection pressures.
If you don't know the specific details of the process, how can you claim to know how evolution works?
Evolution works by selection and mutation resulting in descent with modification. Do we know the details of how the whale's blowhole migrated to the top of its head in terms of mutations, matings and morphological changes? No, of course not. But we still know how evolution works.
Everything evolved according to the theory of evolution.
Can you prove that?
Science doesn't work by proving things. Haven't you already been told this a number of times?
What science does do is gather or produce evidence in support of various hypotheses, and if one hypothesis reaches the point where it is widely accepted within the relevant scientific community then it becomes a theory.
If I claimed to know how to split an atom, but couldn't describe the details of the process, I wouldn't expect anyone to believe my claim.
But when you ask about the evolution of the whale's blowhole you're asking a question of a different nature. Sticking with your atom analogy, it would be as if you asked if we knew how some atom in the past was split, and then when we couldn't answer because we have no data about the splitting of that atom you went on to claim we didn't know how to split an atom. And you'd be wrong, because we very much do know how to split an atom, in a variety of ways.
You're wrong in the identical way about evolution. You're claiming that our ignorance of the details of past evolutionary events means that we don't understand the process by which the changes happened.
You understand how houses are built, right? Men measuring and sawing boards, pounding nails, installing windows, adding insulation and shingles, and so forth? But can you provide the exact details of how any particular house was built? Could even an experienced builder reconstruct the precise construction details of any house, even one he built himself a number of years ago? No. Does that mean we don't understand how houses are built?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dredge, posted 05-30-2022 7:31 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 12:44 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 217 by Dredge, posted 06-22-2022 1:37 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 228 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 2:50 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 128 of 1429 (894867)
05-31-2022 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Dredge
05-31-2022 7:18 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Hang on, let me get this straight ... you claim to know how evolution works, but you can't describe the process involved in any of the macro-evolutionary transitions I mentioned?
The only real question is how long you'll persist in pretending an inability to think rationally. Nobody's this dumb.
As has been explained, macroevolution is just a lot of microevolution. Yes, we can describe the process. For sexual species, matings combine the DNA (with mutations) from two individuals. The DNA combining and the mutations guarantee that offspring are never identical to parents. Selection pressures do not remain unchanged forever, and even if they did there's still genetic drift, and so species change is inevitable.
The particular detailed course that evolution took for any species, the question you keep asking, is not usually something we can know. That kind of evidence doesn't usually survive. To illustrate, think how hard it would be to analyze your parents' DNA along with your DNA and figure out what the haploid DNA contributions (one from a sperm, one from an egg) from each parent must have been. Now think how much harder it would be to go back one more generation and repeat the exercise for your grandparents. And now imagine how infinitely harder it would be to do this for an organism that went extinct millions of years ago and for which no tissue survives, only what was once bone now replaced with minerals to become stone. All we have is a shape preserved in stone.
We can learn a great deal today through genetic analysis that tells us some events of our evolutionary past. For example, chips have 24 chromosome pairs and humans 23. There are two of the chimp chromosomes that if combined would be pretty much the same as one of the human chromosomes. Therefore we know that at some time in our evolutionary past after the chimp/human common ancestor diverged into a line that led to chimps and another that led to humans, that that chromosome in the chimp line spilt, or those chromosomes in the human line combined.
But which of these two possibilities is what really happened? We don't know. When did it happen? We don't know. Was the change gradual or sudden? We don't know. What caused the chromosomes to combine or to split? We don't know.
Can you describe the process involved in any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record?
Maybe the fact that you're using the word process in two different contexts is confusing you. When it comes to how evolution works, we understand that process very well. But when it comes to evolutionary history, there's a great deal we don't know about what happened. You're referring to both evolution and evolutionary history as the "evolutionary process," and they're not the same thing at all.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 7:18 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by AZPaul3, posted 05-31-2022 12:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 218 by Dredge, posted 06-22-2022 1:57 PM Percy has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 129 of 1429 (894874)
05-31-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Percy
05-31-2022 12:18 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
The only real question is how long you'll persist in pretending an inability to think rationally. Nobody's this dumb.
Uhhh, he does say he's catholic. Really not unlikely that he is as dumb as he sounds. He seems willing to wear that moniker in defence of this stupidity. How dumb is that?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 05-31-2022 12:18 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 1:58 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(4)
Message 130 of 1429 (894877)
05-31-2022 1:06 PM


In France alone:
quote
The findings of an inquiry into sexual abuse and paedophilia in the French Catholic church, published last week, are difficult to read and painful to contemplate. Over the past 70 years, the Independent Commission on Sexual Abuse in the Church found that at least 216,000 children were subjected to abuse at the hands of Catholic priests and members of religious orders. Sexual exploitation within the church and associated institutions, the commission stated, had been a “massive phenomenon”. Beyond immediate family and friends, the prevalence of sexual violence in the church outstripped that in any other social environment.
The Guardian view on sexual abuse and the Catholic church: contrition is not enough | Editorial

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-31-2022 1:40 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 131 of 1429 (894882)
05-31-2022 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Tangle
05-31-2022 1:06 PM


Yeah, those catholic charities Dredge is boasting about are just ways to congregate victims. That's what churches are, child rape organizations.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2022 1:06 PM Tangle has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(5)
Message 132 of 1429 (894884)
05-31-2022 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by AZPaul3
05-31-2022 12:51 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Uhhh, he does say he's catholic.
One of the defining differences between Catholics and Protestants is supposed to be that Catholics are required to believe what they're told (forbidden to read the Bible until relatively recently) while Protestants are supposed to read the Bible and figure it out themselves. Of course it's different in practice where Catholics tend to become skeptical of what they're told while Protestants are the blind and gullible believers.
One of the benefits to the church of the traditional Catholic ban on reading the Bible is that it's been able to stay together so well. Let people read the Bible for themselves and they'll start interpreting it for themselves which leads to schisms and new denominations, exactly what we see among Protestants. For Catholics, any different interpretation is heresy.
Bertrand Russell is quoted as saying that if a Catholic becomes a freethinker then he will most likely become an atheist, whereas if a Protestant becomes a freethinker then he'll just form a new church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by AZPaul3, posted 05-31-2022 12:51 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-31-2022 2:21 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 219 by Dredge, posted 06-22-2022 2:09 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 133 of 1429 (894885)
05-31-2022 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by dwise1
05-31-2022 1:58 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Let people read the Bible for themselves and they'll start interpreting it for themselves which leads to schisms and new denominations, exactly what we see among Protestants. For Catholics, any different interpretation is heresy.
What I find mind boggling is that the Christian religions have had such impact and control over human society for 2 thousand years based on myths written down by a bunch of bronze age Jews, who they mostly seem to hate.
It's amazing that modern humans believe a bunch of crap cooked up by bronze age goat herders.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2022 1:58 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 05-31-2022 2:46 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 134 of 1429 (894886)
05-31-2022 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Tanypteryx
05-31-2022 2:21 PM


It wasn't the myths
It wasn't the myths or tales or even the possibility that there was some basic truth to the stories.
Christianity was spread by force, by States power. It was primarily physical force but also economic force, by edict and pogrom and ethnic genocide.
And unfortunately it was effective.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin insert missing 'c'


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-31-2022 2:21 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2022 3:22 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 135 of 1429 (894892)
05-31-2022 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
05-31-2022 2:46 PM


Re: It wasn't the myths
Making the best of a terrifically shite thing, the religious period was probably a necessary evolutionary stage to get to the final sapiens bit is H. sapiens sapiens+. To be fair, in evolutionary terms, 5,000 years? That's not even a fart in the bath.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 05-31-2022 2:46 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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