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Author | Topic: Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
And nobody can prove that micro-walking can take you macro-distances? Yawn. ... but what a pity no one can prove that known micro-evolutionary mechanisms are responsible for producing the macro-evolutionary transitions evident in the fossil record."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
I know how to swim the Atlantic. Doesn't mean I can do it. How could anyone know how to produce eukaryotes from prokaryotes without actually doing it?"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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I'm starting to think you weren't kidding about your IQ.
I know how flight works. I understand aerodynamic principals, but that doesn't mean I can build a jet airliner or fly one. You seem unable to grasp the simple fact that macroevolution is just lots of microevolution, so it is not a separate process. Repeatedly asking us to explain it to you is just lame.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Dredge Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Hang on, let me get this straight ... you claim to know how evolution works, but you can't describe the process involved in any of the macro-evolutionary transitions I mentioned?
Can you describe the process involved in any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Dredge writes: you can't describe the process involved in any of the macro-evolutionary transitions I mentioned? The process involved in evolutionary transitions is microevolution. You didn't "mention" any specific species transitions and you have been told, repeatedly, that there is no such process as macroevolution.
Dredge writes: Can you describe the process involved in any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record? No, because the process involved in evolutionary transition in the fossil record is microevolution.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Dredge writes: ...but until someone actually produces a eukaryote from a prokaryote, they can't claim to know how that evolution happened. Why not? I know how climbing mountains happens.But I've never been atop Everest. I know how lawn mowers work.But I've never built a small engine. I know how heavier-than-air flight happens.But I've never designed an airplane. These hills your choosing to die on... seems awfully easy to flatten.
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Percy Member Posts: 22503 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Dredge writes: There is no contradiction at all. I can accept that life on earth evolved without knowing (or anyone knowing) the first thing about how evolution works. You believe life on earth evolved because you know what evolution looks like in the fossil record, and you know what evolution looks like because you know how it works.
I think what you meant to say, since it would be consistent with what you just said previously, is that we don't know the details of how it evolved. We don't the know the specific mutations or the specific evolutionary selection pressures.
If you don't know the specific details of the process, how can you claim to know how evolution works? Evolution works by selection and mutation resulting in descent with modification. Do we know the details of how the whale's blowhole migrated to the top of its head in terms of mutations, matings and morphological changes? No, of course not. But we still know how evolution works.
Everything evolved according to the theory of evolution. Can you prove that? Science doesn't work by proving things. Haven't you already been told this a number of times? What science does do is gather or produce evidence in support of various hypotheses, and if one hypothesis reaches the point where it is widely accepted within the relevant scientific community then it becomes a theory.
If I claimed to know how to split an atom, but couldn't describe the details of the process, I wouldn't expect anyone to believe my claim. But when you ask about the evolution of the whale's blowhole you're asking a question of a different nature. Sticking with your atom analogy, it would be as if you asked if we knew how some atom in the past was split, and then when we couldn't answer because we have no data about the splitting of that atom you went on to claim we didn't know how to split an atom. And you'd be wrong, because we very much do know how to split an atom, in a variety of ways. You're wrong in the identical way about evolution. You're claiming that our ignorance of the details of past evolutionary events means that we don't understand the process by which the changes happened. You understand how houses are built, right? Men measuring and sawing boards, pounding nails, installing windows, adding insulation and shingles, and so forth? But can you provide the exact details of how any particular house was built? Could even an experienced builder reconstruct the precise construction details of any house, even one he built himself a number of years ago? No. Does that mean we don't understand how houses are built? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22503 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Dredge writes: Hang on, let me get this straight ... you claim to know how evolution works, but you can't describe the process involved in any of the macro-evolutionary transitions I mentioned? The only real question is how long you'll persist in pretending an inability to think rationally. Nobody's this dumb. As has been explained, macroevolution is just a lot of microevolution. Yes, we can describe the process. For sexual species, matings combine the DNA (with mutations) from two individuals. The DNA combining and the mutations guarantee that offspring are never identical to parents. Selection pressures do not remain unchanged forever, and even if they did there's still genetic drift, and so species change is inevitable. The particular detailed course that evolution took for any species, the question you keep asking, is not usually something we can know. That kind of evidence doesn't usually survive. To illustrate, think how hard it would be to analyze your parents' DNA along with your DNA and figure out what the haploid DNA contributions (one from a sperm, one from an egg) from each parent must have been. Now think how much harder it would be to go back one more generation and repeat the exercise for your grandparents. And now imagine how infinitely harder it would be to do this for an organism that went extinct millions of years ago and for which no tissue survives, only what was once bone now replaced with minerals to become stone. All we have is a shape preserved in stone. We can learn a great deal today through genetic analysis that tells us some events of our evolutionary past. For example, chips have 24 chromosome pairs and humans 23. There are two of the chimp chromosomes that if combined would be pretty much the same as one of the human chromosomes. Therefore we know that at some time in our evolutionary past after the chimp/human common ancestor diverged into a line that led to chimps and another that led to humans, that that chromosome in the chimp line spilt, or those chromosomes in the human line combined. But which of these two possibilities is what really happened? We don't know. When did it happen? We don't know. Was the change gradual or sudden? We don't know. What caused the chromosomes to combine or to split? We don't know.
Can you describe the process involved in any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record? Maybe the fact that you're using the word process in two different contexts is confusing you. When it comes to how evolution works, we understand that process very well. But when it comes to evolutionary history, there's a great deal we don't know about what happened. You're referring to both evolution and evolutionary history as the "evolutionary process," and they're not the same thing at all. --Percy
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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The only real question is how long you'll persist in pretending an inability to think rationally. Nobody's this dumb.
Uhhh, he does say he's catholic. Really not unlikely that he is as dumb as he sounds. He seems willing to wear that moniker in defence of this stupidity. How dumb is that?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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In France alone:
quote Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Yeah, those catholic charities Dredge is boasting about are just ways to congregate victims. That's what churches are, child rape organizations.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Uhhh, he does say he's catholic. One of the defining differences between Catholics and Protestants is supposed to be that Catholics are required to believe what they're told (forbidden to read the Bible until relatively recently) while Protestants are supposed to read the Bible and figure it out themselves. Of course it's different in practice where Catholics tend to become skeptical of what they're told while Protestants are the blind and gullible believers. One of the benefits to the church of the traditional Catholic ban on reading the Bible is that it's been able to stay together so well. Let people read the Bible for themselves and they'll start interpreting it for themselves which leads to schisms and new denominations, exactly what we see among Protestants. For Catholics, any different interpretation is heresy. Bertrand Russell is quoted as saying that if a Catholic becomes a freethinker then he will most likely become an atheist, whereas if a Protestant becomes a freethinker then he'll just form a new church.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Let people read the Bible for themselves and they'll start interpreting it for themselves which leads to schisms and new denominations, exactly what we see among Protestants. For Catholics, any different interpretation is heresy. What I find mind boggling is that the Christian religions have had such impact and control over human society for 2 thousand years based on myths written down by a bunch of bronze age Jews, who they mostly seem to hate. It's amazing that modern humans believe a bunch of crap cooked up by bronze age goat herders.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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It wasn't the myths or tales or even the possibility that there was some basic truth to the stories.
Christianity was spread by force, by States power. It was primarily physical force but also economic force, by edict and pogrom and ethnic genocide. And unfortunately it was effective.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin insert missing 'c' My Website: My Website
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Making the best of a terrifically shite thing, the religious period was probably a necessary evolutionary stage to get to the final sapiens bit is H. sapiens sapiens+. To be fair, in evolutionary terms, 5,000 years? That's not even a fart in the bath.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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