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Author | Topic: The War in Europe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
It may be wishful thinking but I'm feeling a bit of a change in the NATO thinking. I've heard a few retired generals commenting that it may be possible for Ukraine to actually win if they get enough help (short of air and boots).
The other part is a feeling that if we don't fight this war successfully by proxy now, we'll be fighting it for real in 10 years time when Russia will be better prepared. But they still feel they're walking a tightrope. Personally I think the steady ratcheting up is correct - so long as we are actually doing enough.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Personally I think the steady ratcheting up is correct - so long as we are actually doing enough. If Ukraine are resisting the Russians but not defeating them are we doing enough?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
AZPaul writes: If Ukraine are resisting the Russians but not defeating them are we doing enough? They defeated them in Kyiv. Who knows...Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
I've heard a few retired generals commenting that it may be possible for Ukraine to actually win if they get enough help (short of air and boots). The Russians got their asses kicked in Afghanistan and I'm hoping for the same outcome in Ukraine. I hope we are actually helping that happen!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
You and Tangle are right, the Russian may very well defeat themselves, again. The human cost has been too high, though, and is not about to stop.
What can we do to shorten this thing? Force it to a conclusion.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
ringo writes: I'm thinking that Putin's attack on Ukraine may be less like Hitler's attacks on Poland and France and more like Stalin's attack on Finland. Hitler's gains in Europe and Putin's attacks on Chechnya, Georgia, the Crimea, the Donbas region and now all of Ukraine seem right in line with each other. They both seem like plays for more territory, influence, power and respect. Wasn't Stalin's main concern about Finland its potential use as an enemy base of operations? The amount of territory he was originally demanding wasn't that great. --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
Hitler's aim was tangible: lebensraum. Putin's goal seems to be restoration of the glory of the Tsarist Empire. And his methodology is diminishing Russia's influence and respect.
They both seem like plays for more territory, influence, power and respect. Percy writes:
Putin claims the same thing. That may be a good thing, allowing him to pull back and save face by declaring "victory". Wasn't Stalin's main concern about Finland its potential use as an enemy base of operations?"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Volodymyr Zelenskyy's full 60 Minutes interview in Ukrainian
quote: The wartime president: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy speaks with Scott Pelley in Kyiv (translated English version) Every time I see Zelenskyy I admire him more. He seems to be a man of dignity, honor, integrity and a humble self awareness. He appears to be a really good leader also! Character does still matter. Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I totally agree. Volodymyr Zelenskyy is to be respected. He almost makes me want to have the guts (along with my country) to stand for freedom and against totalitarianism. I still have fears, but if that's what it takes, it is indeed a spiritual war as well as an actual one. We live in serious times.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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I was hoping to find a definitive list of which countries support Russia and which support Ukraine, but no such luck. I put this together myself, and it isn't complete, though all the major countries are on it. If someone knows of some news outlet that has a done a complete job please post it.
I think some countries must be waffling, because I found some contradictory information out there. For example, I found one article saying that China does not support Russia, but other information said they did, and I've read articles about China continuing trade with Russia, aiding Russia with sanctions, and issuing sympathetic propaganda, so I put China in the "Supports Russia" category. I had similar problems with Hungary and Turkey, which I also put in the "Supports Russia" category. Supports Russia:
Supports Ukraine:
Neutral:
Some sources:
--Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Couple of question marks
Hungary is an EU and NATO member so whether it's of much consequence what their embarrassing leader says and does is moot Turkey is providing arms to Ukraine.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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A comparision of the two militaries by a guy who knows what he's talking about.
I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here's What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies. - The BulwarkIt's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I read that earlier today. Amazing and insightful.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Tangle writes: Hungary is an EU and NATO member so whether it's of much consequence what their embarrassing leader says and does is moot Hungary is maintaining its joint military agreements with Russia and and is refusing to support the EU sanctions on Russian oil and gas.
Turkey is providing arms to Ukraine. You could be right about Turkey. My distrust of Erdoğan probably influenced me. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
The Washington Post is currently running an opinion piece by Michael Gerson that summed up my view pretty well (If Putin isn’t stopped in Ukraine, the Baltics are likely next). Here's the concluding paragraph:
quote: Taking on NATO head on if it means restoring Soviet Union era vassal states isn't something that Russia would shy away from. Given the dearth of NATO troops and armaments in the Baltic States and no NATO bases at all, the Russian army would swarm over the Baltic states and present the west with a fait accompli. --Percy
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