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Author
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Topic: The origin of everything
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Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 851 days) Posts: 826 Joined: 05-04-2019
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Message 31 of 106 (893293)
04-03-2022 10:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
04-02-2022 3:58 PM
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Or perhaps one could just open Webster's and find the definition there?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Phat, posted 04-02-2022 3:58 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 851 days) Posts: 826 Joined: 05-04-2019
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Message 32 of 106 (893294)
04-03-2022 10:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
04-02-2022 4:01 PM
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Re: Irony of the year
Oh, I wouldn't say that. There are plenty of things out there that people (intellectuals or anybody else) can't explain. That's why we have scientists and explorers and such.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Phat, posted 04-02-2022 4:01 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 9.2
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Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
You need to think more of the poetry of the universe. Haiku.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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dwise1
Member Posts: 6077 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 7.2
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Re: Irony of the year
There's no need to be "careful" about leaving "god stuff" out of any explanation, since there has never been an explanation that needed "god stuff." Not once. Why not try to evaluate the "god stuff" of an explanation for how anything in this physical universe works? For example:
- Perform the same experiment or procedure multiple times, half of them with and the other half without adding "god stuff."
- Compare the results of both batches for patterns looking for any evidence of statistically significant difference between their results:
- First, note that there will always be some variation in experimental results ("noise"), so we need to employ statistical analysis on multiple performances of that experiment to detect a meaningful difference ("signal"). Such a detection of "signal" would be a statistically significant difference.
And for non-scientists and non-engineers here: a basic task in experiments and tests is to determine whether something you find is statistically significant, basically winnowing the kernels of "signal" from the mountains of chaff "noise".
- If there is a statistically significant difference then that would indicate that that "god stuff" had an effect.
- If there is no statistically significant difference then that would indicate that that "god stuff" had no effect.
- Conduct that experiment multiple times, preferably with multiple independent teams, for more data to feed your statistical analysis. Also branch out by applying this test to other experiments/procedures/tests.
- A variation would be to take an experiment that was constructed to include "god stuff" from the beginning, then remove that "god stuff" and see if that new lack of "god stuff" affects the results in any way.
In the end, I predict that you will find that including "god stuff" does nothing signficant: adding "god stuff" or omitting "god stuff" has no effect. Mathematically, we are working with some function ( f()) which does not include any "god stuff" and to which we can add some "god stuff" ( g()):
y = f(x 1,x 2,x 3, ... x n) y 1 = f(x 1,x 2,x 3, ... x n) + g() y 1 == y Therefore: g() == zero -- AKA NULL
Adding "god stuff" or leaving it out has no effect. Starting your car has no difference whether you say certain prayers or not, whether you are Protestant, "true Christian", Muslim, Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, Buddhist, pagan, atheist, whatever. In TOS Spock was once given the line: "A difference which makes no difference is no difference." Science and the Universe works the same and completely independent of our religious beliefs. Though an interesting side-effect is that those who insist that "god stuff" must be added to science et al. are effectively demonstrating that "god stuff" is insignificant and basically zero, such that adding or deleting it has exactly the same effect: none whatsoever. Thus they prove that God is meaningless. Apologist, meet petard; now hoist! Edited by dwise1, : slight notational cleanupEdited by dwise1, : Changed "removing 'god stuff'" to "omitting", since that's the actual issue: Do we add "God" to science et al. or continue to not include such extraneous and superfluous "factors"?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-02-2022 4:11 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 35 of 106 (893312)
04-04-2022 11:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
04-02-2022 3:56 PM
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Re: A Few Questions
Phat writes: Its an easy persona to sustain if you are, in fact, God.
How would you know that?
Phat writes: It is (a) difficult if not impossible persona to duplicate or counterfeit.
On the contrary, thousands of false gods have fooled millions of people.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Phat, posted 04-02-2022 3:56 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 36 by jar, posted 04-04-2022 11:50 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 62 by Phat, posted 09-25-2022 3:24 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 36 of 106 (893313)
04-04-2022 11:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
04-04-2022 11:43 AM
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Re: A Few Questions
Gods only exist when someone believes they exist and they cease to exist when anyone does not believe they exist.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by ringo, posted 04-04-2022 11:43 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 37 of 106 (893314)
04-04-2022 11:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
04-02-2022 4:01 PM
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Re: Irony of the year
Phat writes: The real irony around here will be when the group of secular humanist intellectuals are confronted with events that cannot be explained.
The secular humanist intellectuals have a far better record of explanations than the religionists. I'll point out again that you're saying, "There are some events that cannot be explained - so here's the explanation." You can't have it both ways. If something "cannot be explained", then your god story can't explain it either.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Phat, posted 04-02-2022 4:01 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
The Real God writes: You need to think more of the poetry of the universe.
There once was a God named Jehovah, Made a universe like a Bulova. It ran six thousand years but it ended in tears 'Cause the whole damn thing went supernova.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by The Real God, posted 04-03-2022 4:35 AM | | The Real God has not replied |
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The Real God
Junior Member (Idle past 182 days) Posts: 9 Joined: 04-01-2022
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Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-03-2022 12:49 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-05-2022 1:24 AM | | The Real God has not replied | | | Message 43 by dwise1, posted 04-05-2022 10:39 AM | | The Real God has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 9.2
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Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
It's not natural to think the supernatural is natural
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by The Real God, posted 04-05-2022 1:09 AM | | The Real God has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
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Message 41 of 106 (893325)
04-05-2022 8:18 AM
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Shut down?
If god dude isn't going to defend his OP or even contribute constructively shouldn't this be shut down? I realize pickings are slim, but one thing this forum has is standards. The science side has definitively and overwhelmingly won the debate. There seems to be no more the anti-science crowd can present.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2022 9:59 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 6.7
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Message 42 of 106 (893330)
04-05-2022 9:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 41 by Theodoric
04-05-2022 8:18 AM
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Re: Shut down?
Look at the date the OP was left. Yeah, he got me too. Message 26
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by Theodoric, posted 04-05-2022 8:18 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 04-05-2022 10:56 AM | | AZPaul3 has not replied | | | Message 45 by Stile, posted 04-05-2022 12:05 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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dwise1
Member Posts: 6077 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 7.2
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Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Poe-try. POE try this. POE try that.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by The Real God, posted 04-05-2022 1:09 AM | | The Real God has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
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Message 44 of 106 (893333)
04-05-2022 10:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
04-05-2022 9:59 AM
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Re: Shut down?
Lol. Got me.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2022 9:59 AM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Stile
Member (Idle past 299 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: 12-02-2004
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Message 45 of 106 (893337)
04-05-2022 12:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
04-05-2022 9:59 AM
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Re: Shut down?
AZPaul3 writes: Yeah, he got me too. Yup, got me too  Albeit I was in the other direction. I thought it was awesome and fun that we were promoting such a topic "for real"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2022 9:59 AM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 46 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-05-2022 12:56 PM | | Stile has seen this message but not replied |
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