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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 361 of 995 (892917)
03-18-2022 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Percy
03-18-2022 4:17 PM


Re: Nuke the Ukes!
Putin has already said that he would consider such actions as a declaration of war and has strongly hinted that he might use nukes in such a case. Not sure I would want to go there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Percy, posted 03-18-2022 4:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 03-18-2022 8:28 PM kjsimons has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 362 of 995 (892918)
03-18-2022 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by kjsimons
03-18-2022 4:23 PM


Re: Nuke the Ukes!
kjsimons writes:
Putin has already said that he would consider such actions as a declaration of war and has strongly hinted that he might use nukes in such a case. Not sure I would want to go there.
Putin is counting on the west flinching from the possibility of escalation and just letting him take what he wants. But what if after Ukraine Putin wants some other country, say Moldova? And then the Baltic countries. And then Poland? At each step along the way wouldn't Putin count on us applying the same logic, that any assistance that could possibly thwart his intentions would be considered a declaration of war? Is all we can do is just hope he stops after Ukraine, the way he did after Chechnya, Georgia, the Crimea and the Donetsk region? Is there a place where we should draw the line? If so where, and why that place and not some other place prior?
We saw the answer to that in the years leading up to WWII. Where we should have drawn the line then was the Sudetenland. Where we eventually found we were able to draw it, just barely, was the British Channel.
Hitler wasn't stopped early on because the thought of war was unthinkable, and as long as we also think that way Putin will just keep taking. Putin is playing a game of brinkmanship where he carefully balances taking against provoking, and so far we're falling for it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by kjsimons, posted 03-18-2022 4:23 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by kjsimons, posted 03-18-2022 9:33 PM Percy has replied
 Message 364 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-18-2022 9:39 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 365 by nwr, posted 03-18-2022 9:44 PM Percy has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 363 of 995 (892919)
03-18-2022 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Percy
03-18-2022 8:28 PM


Re: Nuke the Ukes!
Yes, but this was all before nuclear weapons which drastically changes the equation! How many non-russian cities are we prepared and willing to lose to Russian nuclear bombs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 03-18-2022 8:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Percy, posted 03-19-2022 10:19 AM kjsimons has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 364 of 995 (892920)
03-18-2022 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Percy
03-18-2022 8:28 PM


Re: Nuke the Ukes!
Putin will just keep taking. Putin is playing a game of brinkmanship where he carefully balances taking against provoking, and so far we're falling for it.
Then we should just get on with it now. No warning, no more waiting. Hit Moscow with the 10 biggest nukes we have now. I'm not trying to make light of what you are saying, but we all know with certainty that the only thing that will stop that murderous fuck is death.
The only way to stop him is to take him out along with as many of his thugs and as much of his tyrant shit as possible.
Two choices, give him a running start at taking over the planet and inducing possibly hundreds of years of tyranny, or stop him dead now and hope that's enough to demonstrate the total insanity of letting tyrants hold the world hostage with nuclear weapons.
If we wait to draw a line it will be too late to save anything anyway.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 03-18-2022 8:28 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 365 of 995 (892921)
03-18-2022 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Percy
03-18-2022 8:28 PM


Re: Nuke the Ukes!
And then Poland?
I'm pretty sure that if he touches Poland (or any other NATO member), he will get an unflinching response from NATO. And I'm pretty sure Putin knows that.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 03-18-2022 8:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Percy, posted 03-19-2022 10:55 AM nwr has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 366 of 995 (892923)
03-19-2022 7:44 AM


There are some very brave people in the world.
Russian cosmonauts arrive at ISS in colours of Ukraine flag | News | The Times

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2022 9:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 367 of 995 (892924)
03-19-2022 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Tangle
03-19-2022 7:44 AM


I thought it might be a symbol from Russia that Ukraine was theirs.
Have the three made any statement?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2022 7:44 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2022 10:03 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 368 of 995 (892925)
03-19-2022 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by AZPaul3
03-19-2022 9:03 AM


They've said this
“It became our turn to pick a colour. But, in fact, we had accumulated a lot of yellow material so we needed to use it,” he said. “So that’s why we had to wear yellow.”
Make of that what you will

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2022 9:03 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 369 of 995 (892926)
03-19-2022 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by kjsimons
03-18-2022 9:33 PM


Re: Nuke the Ukes!
kjsimons writes:
How many non-russian cities are we prepared and willing to lose to Russian nuclear bombs?
This was addressed in my previous message. The nuclear issue is encompassed by the term "escalation", which at a lower rung also includes fighter jets apparently.
Since you answered with a rhetorical question already addressed in the message you replied to, I'll be brief. Where do you draw the line of conquest on Putin before you risk nuclear conflict? Your own doorstep? No, of course not, someplace much further away than that, right? At the Ukraine? Modova? Poland? Germany? Britain? Where do you draw the line after which you'd risk nuclear war and why there?
For other issues you didn't address see my previous Message 362.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by kjsimons, posted 03-18-2022 9:33 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 370 of 995 (892927)
03-19-2022 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by nwr
03-18-2022 9:44 PM


Re: Nuke the Ukes!
nwr writes:
I'm pretty sure that if he touches Poland (or any other NATO member), he will get an unflinching response from NATO. And I'm pretty sure Putin knows that.
Once he has Ukraine he'll begin pecking away at other countries, likely Moldova and the Baltic states. (Even though they're NATO members, Putin will open political cracks to cause pretexts for going in to restore stability, or maybe he'll make up more NAZI stories, or he'll come up with something new. Once Russia controls those countries politically they'll withdraw from NATO.) Now Poland is surrounded, and Putin will again pressure NATO to back away from Poland, citing it as a threat to Russian security. And a Russia able to turn Ukraine's industrial power toward its own interests will be a more powerful Russia.
How does Russia peck away at Poland. Easily. In negotiations with NATO and the EU, missiles and troops in eastern Poland are cited as a security threat to Russia, so they're moved to western Poland. In the next negotiations Russia asks the number of missiles and troops in Poland be reduced and moved west to other countries. Russia begins pecking away at the Polish political order. As Russia threatens to go in to restore order, NATO is reluctant to intervene because of the risk of antagonizing Putin and because NATO strength in the region is now so diminished.
But let's go back to your answer. You'd draw the line at Poland and any other NATO member. So Putin can have Ukraine, Belarus (already gone) and Moldova. Boy, I wouldn't want to be Moldova right now, what with Ukraine in its current situation. Finland and Sweden (and Ireland, but they're too far away) aren't NATO members, but presumably you'd draw the line there, too?
I'm getting the sense that some people believe Putin's expansion has a natural stopping point and so doesn't represent a real threat to us. But the actual principle is similar to a game of Risk, where more power and territory only makes expansion easier. We will eventually have to stand up to Putin (what we're doing now is akin to whipping him with a hand towel), and the sooner we do it the less costly it will be.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by nwr, posted 03-18-2022 9:44 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 371 of 995 (892928)
03-19-2022 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Percy
03-19-2022 10:55 AM


Re: Nuke the Ukes!
I'm getting the sense that some people believe Putin's expansion has a natural stopping point and so doesn't represent a real threat to us.
Putin is indeed a real threat. For now, I'll leave the decision making to Biden and NATO members.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Percy, posted 03-19-2022 10:55 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 372 of 995 (892929)
03-19-2022 12:03 PM


The line is drawn at NATO member territory and it's very, very red. NATO and Europe now knows that if it shows any sign of weakness there it would be fatal.
But handily, NATO is fighting Russia in Ukraine. Putin can't win there, he's already lost the war even if he eventually takes Ukraine, he can't keep it, he hasn't got the resource. In the meantime Russia's entire economy will fail and eventually Ukraine will take back it's territory and be rebuilt with confiscated Oligarch assets.
One of your Generals said that you'd be hard pushed to find a battle that the Americans didn't win in Afghanistan, but you still lost the war.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 373 of 995 (892930)
03-19-2022 6:48 PM


Wash Post: White supremacists - worldwide - traveling to join Ukrainian forces
Rita Katz, author, said this is the largest worldwide recruitment movement since the 2014 Islamic State's pull of worldwide volunteers, after declaring the Caliphate.
The mostly-western (duh) volunteers are looking forward to fighting the Russians, killing ethnic-Russian civilians, and exterminating Jewish individuals - wherever found.
The Ukrainian government's Azov Battalion has killed Roma in recent years.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by jar, posted 03-19-2022 6:54 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 374 of 995 (892931)
03-19-2022 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by LamarkNewAge
03-19-2022 6:48 PM


Re: Wash Post: White supremacists - worldwide - traveling to join Ukrainian forces
You just insist on lying, don't you.
And so yet again you resort to outright lies.
Or perhaps you might actually provide a link to the Washington Post article titled "White supremacists - worldwide - traveling to join Ukrainian forces "
But since no such article even exists that might be difficult and beyond your capabilities.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-19-2022 6:48 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 376 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-19-2022 7:40 PM jar has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 375 of 995 (892932)
03-19-2022 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by jar
03-19-2022 6:54 PM


Re: Wash Post: White supremacists - worldwide - traveling to join Ukrainian forces
You cant use Google?
Rita Katz might be a smart set to type.
Another hint:
Washington Post.
So far:
"Rita Katz Washington Post"
Incase this does not work, there must be a fifth word that will help...
(No title was implied. No quotes. I never said such a thing. Everything in my title was in accordance with every gener as l standard practice)
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by jar, posted 03-19-2022 6:54 PM jar has not replied

  
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