EvC Forum: Belief Versus The Scientific Method

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Topic: Belief Versus The Scientific Method

Phat

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From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

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Message 126 of 513 (885720)
04-24-2021 12:03 PM

Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
04-23-2021 3:28 PM

Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments

ringo writes:

By the way, Gods are not Sources. The human mind is the source of all gods.

Speculation. You want this to be true yet you simply cannot prove it. Im telling you that God was around long before humans. (Or perhaps I should elaborate. One of the Gods was around long before humans. The rest of them we made up.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

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	Message 125 by ringo, posted 04-23-2021 3:28 PM		ringo has replied

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	Message 127 by ringo, posted 04-24-2021 3:29 PM		Phat has seen this message but not replied

Phat

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From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

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Message 211 of 513 (890469)
01-06-2022 7:40 AM

Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
04-04-2021 1:33 PM

Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat

vimesey writes:

Saying that you have faith that some bearded fellow with a sadistic history wished the sun into existence, as a result of some inconsistent stories written down in the Bronze Age, is using a different meaning of the word faith.

Not sure who this "bearded fellow" whom you refer to is.

ringo writes:

There are thousands of gods. Your apologist's claims do nothing to support one over the others.

Thousands, eh? I may reject the book, but you reject Jesus...the central character. You claim a "get out of responsibility" card because you don't believe that Jesus is real or can help you. For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed.

ringo writes:

you can't show any difference between your made-up god and any other made-up god.

As long as you call ALL of them made-up, I can't convince you of anything.

ringo writes:

The human mind is the source of all gods.

You do believe in the Dusty Old Book, so allow me to quote that.

Acts 17:16-30 ESV writes:

16Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new.

Paul Addresses the Areopagus

22So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,c 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

29Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

It's amazing how not much has changed. These days people still worship things made by men. That new space telescope is the hope for the future for many. AZPaul3 likely worships human potential and distant galaxies if he could be charged with worshipping anything. God will not overlook such ignorance veiled behind education and "evidence". The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book.

Oh, but that's right! You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer. You then turn around, hold me to giving everything up while you all stay nice and warm in your houses, essentially *worship* human potential and creativity as the sole hope for mankind, and scold me for ignoring a dusty old book which you yourselves believe was entirely human-inspired and compiled.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

This message is a reply to:
	Message 30 by ringo, posted 04-04-2021 1:33 PM		ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 212 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 7:58 AM	Phat has replied
	Message 213 by vimesey, posted 01-06-2022 7:58 AM	Phat has seen this message but not replied
	Message 430 by ringo, posted 01-13-2022 12:31 PM	Phat has seen this message but not replied
	Message 432 by dwise1, posted 01-13-2022 2:12 PM	Phat has not replied

Phat

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Posts: 18310

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.1

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Message 214 of 513 (890472)
01-06-2022 8:17 AM

Reply to: Message 212 by jar
01-06-2022 7:58 AM

Re: Phat, why do you keep using really stupid phrases as though they had some meaning?

The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book.

jar writes:

If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence.

You yourself have previously said that no one has presented the evidence sufficient for your criteria. All I am saying (which you know as you have read the book) is that Paul, converted from being Saul by Jesus Christ previously states that God is not unknown. ringo claims that all "gods" are human creations and are essentially unknown since both he and you have said that no evidence shows any of them to be known or knowable. You are free to believe the evidence you have chosen to accept but you cannot be a Christian simply by doing what Christ, the character in the book, said to do while not believing in Him.
Well...perhaps you can, but you want the government to mandate that we all feed the less fortunate of the planet, give a percentage of our income higher than what we now give, build back better our modern-day ark, throw God away and move boldly into a new humanist evidence-based future. You threw away the only person/idea/messiah that will be able to make humanity succeed. But I can't give you evidence. Only you can find the evidence. And you won't.

jar writes:

Phat writes:

For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed.

If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence of some power other than humans.

No. YOU would be able to see the evidence without my help. And you wont.

jar writes:

Phat writes:

You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer.

What does "placing yourself under God's authority" even mean?

It means believing in a higher power than humans.

Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook?

Why have you dedicated your life to dismissing a known God? Why have you decided to accept only that it is what YOU do that matters?

One thing I will say. If you and the humanists do your best and it ends up working, I'll shut up. Until then, you are WRONG until further notice.

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

This message is a reply to:
	Message 212 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 7:58 AM		jar has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 215 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 8:41 AM		Phat has seen this message but not replied

Phat

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Posts: 18310

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.1

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Message 226 of 513 (890496)
01-06-2022 4:54 PM

Reply to: Message 212 by jar
01-06-2022 7:58 AM

Phrases have meaning whether you agree with them or not.

jar writes:

Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook?

Because a large percentage of us believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. We have no evidence. You seem to insist on me accepting the point that there is no evidence. What I am trying to get you to accept is that for many of us, belief and inner confirmation are enough. Call it gobbledygook or fantasy if you prefer.

You charge Biblical Christians with fantasy-based unevidenced belief.

My response is so what? Why do you dislike us so much? What if some of what we claim to foresee actually occur? Would it bother you if more people committed to becoming believers rather than sticking with logic, reason, and evidence-based reality? What specifically do you pity about Biblical Christians? Is it the fact that many of the Biblical Christians are Republicans? Is it the fact that we often engage in unevidenced fantasy? What I don't like about you is that you openly accept an unknown God.
You insist on limiting Jesus to human status. And the basis of your Christian worldview is that *we* have to do all of it. We seem to believe that Jesus is living and active and can and will help us. You wave the evidence card in our face and tell us that no one has ever been able to explain how this could be possible. And yet you even abhor believing that Jesus could do it. That He could be eternal. The rift between us is infinitely wide.

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

This message is a reply to:
	Message 212 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 7:58 AM		jar has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 228 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 6:30 PM		Phat has not replied

Phat

Member

Posts: 18310

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

Member Rating: 1.1

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Message 508 of 513 (891370)
01-27-2022 7:26 AM

Reply to: Message 503 by AZPaul3
01-26-2022 8:45 PM

Re: Any Redeeming Value?

Silly AZ!

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

This message is a reply to:
	Message 503 by AZPaul3, posted 01-26-2022 8:45 PM		AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

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