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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 457 of 513 (891073)
01-15-2022 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by Tangle
01-15-2022 4:56 AM


Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
"Ideally, there should be a 50:50 allocation of treated and control subjects. If only 30% of subjects are in the control group, the study loses significant power. If only 10% are in the control group, the power of the study is only 40 to 60%, writes Mark H. White, II, Ph.D. At the moment, about 30% of Americans have not taken the COVID vaccine. And government keeps trying to reduce that percentage to as close to zero as possible.
There was a 50:50 allocation in the preauthorization studies of the COVID vaccines. But the blinding has been broken, and those who received placebo are now eligible to receive active vaccine. Thus, there is virtually NO control group for potential late adverse consequences."
Why vaccine trials weren't responsible 'science' – not even close
As for scientists or doctors being corrupt, that all depends on what side of the issue we are talking about. The so called science here is for hire. It is only a matter of interpreting and belief. When we have drug companies wanting to hide results for many decades that should tell you something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2022 4:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2022 5:25 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 458 of 513 (891074)
01-15-2022 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Percy
01-15-2022 2:08 PM


quote:
Though this was from a while ago, that fact doesn't change anything and the points are still valid. The declaration was made on October 4, 2020, even before vaccines were available.
It does suggest that the response to the problem should be different than it was. That would have changed a lot.
quote:
Science doesn't say we need lockdowns. Science says that the virus is a respiratory illness that spreads through the air, leading one to think that minimizing the sharing of air among people would restrict the spread of the virus, and numerous studies have confirmed this unequivocally.
Others suggested herd immunity would better be achieved without the pretense of separation. After all, losing your job and business and then going to a restaurant with less people in it doesn't really make sense. No mask needed at the table yet a foot away it is 'needed'. That was not based on science. No singing in a church but you can line up in a cosco round the block and round the store. Vaccinating little children! That is science? Whatever the virus was it is changing. The recent one for most people was like a cold, even lasting less time.
quote:
But everyone wasn't on board in fighting the virus, a great many still are not on board
The way to fight it, say many experts is early treatment. Most treatments known to work and recommended by some professionals were vilified and suppressed. Some say that covid deaths should for the most part be considered murders! Others suggested that masks were abused and not the way to fight anything. Some people try to vaccinate all the children and think that is the way to fight. That is not science. It has nothing to do with people not wanting to fight! It has to do with wanting to fight in a way that will win. The lying and oppression involved in the covid agendas has resulted in a little boy that cried wolf situation. Many do not believe a word they say any more and never will even if they happened to yell out the truth.
Lockdowns are selective. Some get locked others don't. Some scientist's say they do not work. Others say they do. Again this is belief and opinion, not science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Percy, posted 01-15-2022 2:08 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Percy, posted 01-15-2022 8:02 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 462 of 513 (891080)
01-16-2022 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Tangle
01-15-2022 5:25 PM


Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
If there is no control group how is that being done correctly? As for the doctor you don't like apparently because they are not commies or something, they are still doctors! You do not get to disqualify professionals just because you do not like their opinions or politics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2022 5:25 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by Tangle, posted 01-16-2022 4:15 AM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 463 of 513 (891081)
01-16-2022 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by Percy
01-15-2022 8:02 PM


wowsa
quote:
I think you're on the right track, but this isn't quite accurate. Public policy responses for combating the virus, such as masks, social distancing, closing bars and restaurants and non-essential businesses, cancelling social events, cancelling sporting events, etc., used what science tells about how to prevent the spread of respiratory diseases, which is very simple: prevent people from sharing each other's air.
There are also studies showing masks are a joke. Showing lockdowns are not the way to go. The selective closures are also not related to science.
Here is a passage from a man of science regarding the approaches taken.
"In the end, the truth will always be revealed, and the truth about the coronavirus policy is beginning to be revealed. When the destructive concepts collapse one by one, there is nothing left but to tell the experts who led the management of the pandemic – we told you so.
Two years late, you finally realize that a respiratory virus cannot be defeated and that any such attempt is doomed to fail. You do not admit it, because you have admitted almost no mistake in the last two years, but in retrospect it is clear that you have failed miserably in almost all of your actions, and even the media is already having a hard time covering your shame.
You refused to admit that the infection comes in waves that fade by themselves, despite years of observations and scientific knowledge. You insisted on attributing every decline of a wave solely to your actions, and so through false propaganda “you overcame the plague.” And again you defeated it, and again and again and again.
You refused to admit that mass testing is ineffective, despite your own contingency plans explicitly stating so (“Pandemic Influenza Health System Preparedness Plan, 2007”, p. 26).
You refused to admit that recovery is more protective than a vaccine, despite previous knowledge and observations showing that non-recovered vaccinated people are more likely to be infected than recovered people. You refused to admit that the vaccinated are contagious despite the observations. Based on this, you hoped to achieve herd immunity by vaccination — and you failed in that as well.
You insisted on ignoring the fact that the disease is dozens of times more dangerous for risk groups and older adults, than for young people who are not in risk groups, despite the knowledge that came from China as early as 2020.
You refused to adopt the “Barrington Declaration”, signed by more than 60,000 scientists and medical professionals, or other common sense programs. You chose to ridicule, slander, distort and discredit them. Instead of the right programs and people, you have chosen professionals who lack relevant training for pandemic management (physicists as chief government advisers, veterinarians, security officers, media personnel, and so on).
You have not set up an effective system for reporting side effects from the vaccines and reports on side effects have even been deleted from your Facebook page. Doctors avoid linking side effects to the vaccine, lest you persecute them as you did to some of their colleagues. You have ignored many reports of changes in menstrual intensity and menstrual cycle times. You hid data that allows for objective and proper research (for example, you removed the data on passengers at Ben Gurion Airport). Instead, you chose to publish non-objective articles together with senior Pfizer executives on the effectiveness and safety of vaccines."
Infowars Article
So following science has nothing to do with the response we have seen. Once again both sides claim science.
This post is getting too long, maybe look at the other points you made another time

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Percy, posted 01-15-2022 8:02 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Percy, posted 01-16-2022 6:45 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 467 of 513 (891097)
01-17-2022 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by Tangle
01-16-2022 4:15 AM


Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
There is also data showing the decreased effectiveness of vaccines, hence the boosters. As for the article I posted it actually said there were no effective control group. There are also a million adverse effects reported, and probably, by some estimates 20 times more than that. There are tens of thousands dead as a doornail, as a result of the vaccines, and probably again 20 times more than that. They are trying to mandate it for kids for heaven sake, that is ridiculous. The guy who claimed he represented science was caught lying to congress. Some of the companies doing the testing and making the product have been involved in multiple court cases for injuring people and fraud. So what science do you have to offer saying that the (ingredients unknown) pseudo vaccines are safe in the long term? Ha

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Tangle, posted 01-16-2022 4:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2022 4:04 AM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 468 of 513 (891098)
01-17-2022 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by Percy
01-16-2022 6:45 PM


Re: wowsa
quote:
A former adviser to the World Health Organization and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has compiled a list of more than 150 studies and articles presenting data and evidence that universal masking is ineffective in stopping the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and causes harm.
"A former adviser to the World Health Organization and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has compiled a list of more than 150 studies and articles presenting data and evidence that universal masking is ineffective in stopping the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and causes harm."
150 studies show masks ineffective, harmful
quote:
This is another bald assertion with no factual support. Can you also provide links to these studies?
If something may kill millions that is a bad thing.
"COVID lockdowns pushed nearly 100 million back into poverty"
COVID lockdowns pushed nearly 100 million back into poverty
Then there is this
"Peer-reviewed journal destroys lockdowns"
Peer-reviewed journal destroys lockdowns
or this
"Lockdowns kill: 30% more people died by overdose in 2020"
Lockdowns kill: 30% more people died by overdose in 2020
"Stanford doc: Lockdowns 'biggest public health mistake' ever"
Stanford doc: Lockdowns 'biggest public health mistake' ever
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
quote:
This is yet another bald assertion with no factual support that ignores everything I just explained about public health officials including science in their policy making.
"Lockdowns cause 10 times more harm than good, says peer-reviewed study"
Lockdowns cause 10 times more harm than good, says peer-reviewed study
Selevtive groups can meet and other groups cannot. How is that science? Support your bald assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Percy, posted 01-16-2022 6:45 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Percy, posted 01-17-2022 4:10 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 472 of 513 (891278)
01-23-2022 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Tangle
01-17-2022 4:04 AM


Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
Don't make it sound like science says one thing. The agenda that includes trying to jab little children is not science. Those who try to offer it as such are not honest.
WHO says healthy kids don't need booster shots for COVID-19

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2022 4:04 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2022 3:08 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 473 of 513 (891280)
01-23-2022 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Percy
01-17-2022 4:10 PM


Re: wowsa
quote:
Thank you for your research efforts. Unfortunately the Internet is full of misinformation, and you have to be careful in choosing your sources
As do you
quote:
The "former adviser" is Paul Elias Alexander, a Trump administration official at HHS who "pressured federal scientists and public health agencies to suppress and edit their COVID-19 analyses to make them consistent with Trump's rhetoric." (Paul E. Alexander - Wikipedia) He justified his actions by saying he wanted to make the reports " "more upbeat so that people would feel more confident going out and spending money", and that he "did not think agencies should contradict any president's policy". He believed scientists should back the president's positions instead of science.
Rather than a personal attack on some guy whose politics you apparently don't like, what does that say to the studies that were not done by him?
Do we hear you complaining about those that try to suppress voices in science and medicine? Today, thousands of them are in Wa DC testifying that we have been lied to about what is science or not.
quote:
Since none of the first three studies I examined showed masks ineffective
There are thousands of links for either opinion. The point is that if either side were fact and science, that could not be the case.
example
"study and paper issued by the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) which is part of the United States National Library of Medicine (NLM), a branch of the National Institutes of Health (NIH).
“We argue there really isn’t much of a benefit to the 6-foot rule, especially when people are wearing masks…It really has no physical basis because the air a person is breathing while wearing a mask tends to rise and comes down elsewhere in the room so you’re more exposed to the average background than you are to a person at a distance.”
First Masks Now Social Distancing Proven Ineffective Per New MIT
All aspects of the agenda around the pandemic (lockdowns,vaccinations,boosters,mandates,vaccinating children,etc) are opinion based, not science. Either side claims science.
quote:
The question was whether lockdowns reduce viral spread, thereby reducing illness, permanent disability, and death.
If you put everyone into max security prisons that might reduce crime. It might even reduce some diseases. There is not one science opinion on all this. Some say one thing and others another. For example it is claimed natural immunity is better than vaccines.
CDC study affirms natural immunity superior to vaccines
quote:
But that lockdowns are the best approach in a pandemic is not a position of science.
That sounds like you are coming down on the side of the people claiming that lockdowns are not science based. How about vaccinating little children? How about vaccine mandates?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Percy, posted 01-17-2022 4:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Percy, posted 01-24-2022 2:17 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 475 of 513 (891288)
01-24-2022 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Tangle
01-23-2022 3:08 PM


Getting down to it
The issue of immunity is somewhat settled these days.
CDC study affirms natural immunity superior to vaccines
At least we can safely say that no opinion has a monopoly on science. Even though natural immunity seems to be far more valuable than they admitted.
Other branches of science show us this same thing. That it is opinion of the data that is used, and not actual science to come down on one side or the other, such as evolution and creation, climate change and etc.
Has climate changed a lot lately? Yes. Why? That is opinion that uses data and science. It is not a matter of science itself. Same thing with the evolution of life on earth.
Does evolving happen? Yes. That is science. Is the process of evolving responsible for all life on earth? That is a matter of opinion where each side uses the data and science.
I kid you not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2022 3:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2022 3:15 AM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 478 of 513 (891317)
01-25-2022 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by Tangle
01-24-2022 3:15 AM


Re: Getting down to it
If vaccination is the safest strategy explain this
"Rate of infection more than twice as high for vaccinated people"
Government data show 'vax-free' LESS likely to get COVID
Once again, if something had been true it would not be shown false now. That means that it was not science. (unless you think it means science is a crock)
You mention climate change and the evolution of life on earth. Yes, that is also belief based, although you can feel free to demonstrate otherwise.
Then you ask how old the earth is. Again that depends on what you believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2022 3:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2022 4:07 AM drlove has not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 479 of 513 (891318)
01-25-2022 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by Percy
01-24-2022 2:17 PM


Re: wowsa
quote:
Well of course I do, but I cited no sources except for quoting Paul Elias Alexander's comments from Wikipedia. Did you find anything in those quotes to be inaccurate? Are they not what Alexander actually said? Did he not argue that people should get out and spend money while we were still in the middle of a pandemic? Did he not argue that government scientists shouldn't challenge what the president says when it is contradicted by science?
I am not interested in everything Trump said if he claimed hydroxocloride (or whatever it was) a good treatment. I would only be looking at what the basis for that claim was, or the basis for saying it was actually bad. If I see a report about studies or doctors etc I would not look at what some reporter supposedly said to his wife, etc.
Now as far as vaccines being a joke, here is an article from today.
"Government data show 'vax-free' LESS likely to get COVID
Rate of infection more than twice as high for vaccinated people"
Government data show 'vax-free' LESS likely to get COVID
So if the science said vaxes were good then science is wrong! Either that or those claiming science said that were wrong.
quote:
I think if you present the evidence of the suppression of voices in science and medicine that most people here will be upset about it. When will you be presenting such evidence?
No, it is the suppression of voices in education, media,government and etc. Not 'in' science (whatever that means)
You know, facebook, twitter, mainstream media, etc.
"MSM Blackout Of Medical Doctors Pandemic Response Roundtable Is A Crime Against Humanity"
Infowars Article
"A group of doctors and other medical experts gathered in Washington, D.C. on Monday for a panel discussion on Covid-19 hosted by Senator Ron Johnson (R-WI).
The specialists include Dr. Robert Malone, Dr. Peter McCullough, Dr. Bret Weinstein, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, Dr. Ryan Cole, Dr. Harvey Risch, Dr. George Fareed, Dr. Pierre Kory, Dr. Richard Urso, Dr. Paul Marik, Dr. Aaron Kheriaty and Dr. David Wiseman.
Senator Johnson streamed the panel discussion live on Rumble, as other outlets would likely censor the conversation and do not support free speech in the first place.
The Wisconsin senator’s YouTube account was suspended on Friday after the video platform accused him of “making false claims over treatments for Covid-19.”
Infowars Article
quote:
Today? You wrote this on Sunday. You're saying that thousands of scientists are testifying in Washington D.C. on a Sunday? To who? Neither house of Congress is in session and no congressional committees have meetings scheduled. A Google News search couldn't find a thing.
They were marching and speaking. Not inside congress.
"The massive protest was organized by the Children’s Health Defense, Vaccine Safety Research Foundation, the International Alliance of Physicians and Medical scientists, and the Frontline COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance."
Infowars Article
quote:
I'll take this as grudging acknowledgment that preventing the sharing of air also prevents the spreading of respiratory diseases.
Preventing breathing would do the trick also. I guess you could call that science.
quote:
In other words, you're forgetting (or at least WND is forgetting and is helping you forget) that the virus presents a moving target. The vaccines are for the original SARS-CoV-2 virus. They provide less protection from alpha, even less from delta, and yet less from omicron.
They knew that when they made the first vaccine. What, they thought they would force people to get endless vaccines that don't work anyhow? If they do not work against new variants and we know that there will be new variants, what is the point, and where is the science?
quote:
unt, including science, in deciding whether lockdowns are appropriate for fighting the coronavirus. Science doesn't have a position on lockdowns.
About vaccinating little children, just a few messages ago I wrote how hours old infants are vaccinated, and that there's a vaccine regimen beginning around one year. You write as if you never read any of it.
About vaccine mandates, science has studied herd immunity, and whether vaccine mandates are an appropriate way of achieving herd immunity is public health policy. Public health policy takes science into account, but public health policy is not itself science or a scientific study or anything like that.
Who asked if young infants were vaccinated? Point? Does that mean it is good to do so or bad? If vaccines were a way to achieve herd immunity they would need to work, no? I just showed how double the sick are now vaccinated. That means it does not work. How would that result in herd immunity?
"New research indicates the 46 mutations found in the COVID-19 Omicron variant have rendered antibodies ineffective, accounting for the high number of re-infections and breakthrough cases."
Attention Required! | Cloudflare

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Percy, posted 01-24-2022 2:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Percy, posted 01-25-2022 5:14 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 494 of 513 (891356)
01-26-2022 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Percy
01-25-2022 5:14 PM


Re: wowsa
quote:
This is absurd on its face. It simply isn't possible for the vaccines to cause infections, hospitalizations and deaths. This would only be possible if the vaccines were made with dead or deactivated virus, but they're not.
Raw statement with no support. The long term effects are not known. The actual causes of all the deaths since the vaccines started is not known. Most are listed as something else or unrelated. If a vaccine (regardless of what it was made from) triggered some things that made people sick or killed them, then it is possible they cause hospitalization etc.
Dr Malone and many others have ridiculous years of science with them and under their belt. So we have the situation where science is not one one side of the argument here in any way.
Those who pretend it is are guilty of helping foster the loss of freedom and quality of life from the covid tyranny.
The issue is not 'my' science. The issue is anybody's science. Both sides claim science. Obviously both cannot be right. Would you not expect real science to be clear? On every aspect of the tyranny and agenda associated with covid polar opposite opinions from men of science. Why believe them?
quote:
Right-wing media has built an entire industry fabricating misinformation
That is ignorant. Have you science to back up your bald claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Percy, posted 01-25-2022 5:14 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by Percy, posted 01-27-2022 1:56 PM drlove has not replied
 Message 513 by Taq, posted 01-27-2022 7:09 PM drlove has not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 495 of 513 (891357)
01-26-2022 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by dwise1
01-26-2022 4:04 PM


Re: Any Redeeming Value?
The age of the earth is probably somewhere close to the one Usher calculated, give or take a few hundred years. Global warming is a religious con job, whether or not climate is changing. The theory of evolution is a religious crock. But this thread is not about all that. It is about belief and the scientific method. If the scientific method were anything but belief based, why would we have both sides on the medical science issue unable to provide science for their case?
How could a company convicted of fraud and a multitude of court cases showing a long history of lying and hurting people be responsible for testing a product? How could they be allowed to not reveal the results of studies etc? How could anyone claim that was science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2022 4:04 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2022 7:52 PM drlove has not replied
 Message 506 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2022 3:06 AM drlove has not replied
 Message 509 by Theodoric, posted 01-27-2022 11:46 AM drlove has not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 496 of 513 (891358)
01-26-2022 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by AZPaul3
01-26-2022 3:56 PM


Re: Any Redeeming Value?
It also brought a weaponized space and soon a weaponized moon probably also. If you want to take credit you also take blame.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by AZPaul3, posted 01-26-2022 3:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by AZPaul3, posted 01-26-2022 8:45 PM drlove has not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 497 of 513 (891359)
01-26-2022 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by AZPaul3
01-25-2022 4:06 PM


pot meet kettle
I could say the same about CNN and mainstream media.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by AZPaul3, posted 01-25-2022 4:06 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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