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Author | Topic: Conversations with God | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Im puzzled why you felt this way. Once I got zapped, I never felt the same since. I feel empty occasionally for other reasons but never anything involving God. The whole idea of a God is empty. The idea that he would commune with you is emptier."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
dwise1 writes: I have to know somebody for awhile before sending or receiving private messages and upon reflection I think I agree with you here. My one exception to this rule is prayer. I do not share my prayers so casually. And if God (or Whom I believed to be God) had something to share with me, it would be meditated upon in my inner conscience and shared later, after reflection and inner processing. At that point it would be my own thoughts anyway. I want every exchange to be fully public. Wanting to keep such exchanges private is a sure sign of the desire to deceive."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
Once I got zapped, I never felt the same since.ringo writes: I was only told that Christians had to become born again in order to be genuine. I recall that I never gave it much thought as I thought that I was already "Christian Enough"...having been raised in the religion and having discussed God before. I was never full aware that there was another level until I was in the process of feeling and experiencing that level.
You were told you should feel that way and you were eager to feel that way. Feelings are a slippery thing. We can convince ourselves to feel a certain way. But feelings don't determine reality. So you guys have taught me. Actions determine authenticity. But we were taught that actions in and of themselves were simply actions....works, if you will. A good catholic may dutifully make up a bunch of sandwiches to feed the homeless yet not have a clue who GOD was and is apart from the bells, smells, and icons to pray to. Likewise, a "good" Protestant may seek to fit in by whooping, hollering, shouting amen! amen! and running around the building waving a prayer hankie. Yet they may have a God or Jesus in their head unlike the original. Perhaos a white Jesus. A Conservative Jesus. Or as ringo suggests I have, a nice favoring and generous Jesus Who expects me to be honest and compromising. God forbid I actually had to give it all up! ringo charges me with making Him up. I didnt write the book, however. I believe that even if there were no book, Jesus could and would meet me where I am at. There lies the battle, the demons and the character or lack of same."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Much of what you believe does not come from the book. It has been spoon fed to you by religious con men. I've thought about this. First, I know now that I have been exposed to and conned by "religious con men." I believed in them and in their image,reputation, and seeming integrity. Ravi Zacharias is a great example. At the time, I never questioned his actions..(those which I could even see or hear) and was quite defensive when EvC Members such as jar, ringo, and Theodoric (especially Theodoric) denounced him. As it turned out, I ate a heaping helping of crow once Theodorics accusations became mainstream. That being said, I never lumped all of the apologists employed by RZIM Ministries (who are planning to change their name, publicly renounce Ravi and rebrand) into the conman pool. The EvC Peanut Gallery is by and large far more skeptical...especially of Christianity in the United States at least. Our Texas Ranger, Jar, has long warned his audience about Biblical Christians (as opposed to traditional Christians of the non-woo and evidence based thinking approach. You don't speak up very much, but I remember years ago when you would visit jar and myself in chat. Anglagard is another whom thinks similar to you and jar. Still, I have adopted my beliefs from my intuition. If anything, I am conning myself by doing this and am fully aware that I will be judged by what I do versus what I could have done in this life. One reason that I continue to hang out here at Percys Forum is because I get challenged. And I believe that it has made me stronger in my faith, if one can even weigh such things. Currently, I stand on several principals.1) Jeus Christ rose from the dead. The Trinity is a deep yet valid way to frame my belief. There is One God (not many as has been argued) there is (or was) One human character whom was more than simply a prophet or a guru/wiseman type of human. I believe that He was in full Communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen. We have access to Him (GOD) now because of Jesus, and because the Holy Spirit (Comforter, Teacher, Presence) is here with us on earth. I fault no one here at EvC for thinking or believing differently. I most certainly have not arrived or as yet been Sanctified. As our Forum Guidelines state, The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person. . Feel free to keep challenging me, as I would expect nothing less at EvC. Edited by Phat, : better worded after sleeping on it."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I got saved the first month before I ever even learned the buzzwords and catchphrases. Charismatic (Charismaniacal) Christianity became an addiction only after I got saved and after I went from believing about God and Jesus to actually feeling as if I had met them in my inner spirit. The feeling of communion with Him was the prerequisite. I actually avoided spending much time with the Biblical Christians...Charismatics All. Its also why I rarely talked to Faith. I couldn't handle the belief of a young earth and an alternate science. And I felt as if she had too much pride and certainty that she and she alone was right about things. Do I come across the same way? If so I dont see it...but I have an idea that I am at times arrogant. I have hardly ever heard a sermon where they didn't tell you how wonderful and joyous it is to be "saved". The hymns do it too."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Will you stop saying that!The only part which I have publicly challenged you on is the idea that all Christians are taught to give everything up. It is simply crazy. Besides, why are only we called to do it? Thats not very fair is it. You don't even believe the book, so your Jesus must be made up."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
dwise1 writes: So to start with, we have to have some sort of consensus on what *is* right and what *is* wrong. Correctness would of course depend on getting things right, so being false would be the opposite, namely getting things wrong. I would think that we can all agree to that. But are we requiring (or trying to claim) that a religion get absolutely everything right in order to qualify as "correct"? Or can it get some things right and also some things wrong and still qualify as "correct"? By the same token, are we requiring (or trying to claim) that a religion get absolutely everything wrong in order to qualify as "false"? Or can it get some things wrong but still get some things right (however few) and still qualify as "false"? Until we can agree on some kind of standards to proper rate religions, then Phat's claim (or hypothetical scenario) of "out of many religions only one is correct" is so meaningless as to not even come within sight of becoming an assertion.Beyond that, my initial assertion would claim that there is One GOD and that Jesus among humans was the one closest to (or identical to) His basic nature and code of ethics. One assumption, too, is that GOD has a better grasp of what morality should entail than do humans. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I must concede my arguments. You and ringo are basically correct in that Jesus, the character in the book (if not in reality) does say that the godly in Christ will suffer. Nothing is going to be easy...any easier than it was for all of the Apostles martyred for their faith.
It is humbling to think that a bunch of atheists and critical thinkers could see this even while saying that there is no evidence for God. |And I have to fight off the envy that I MUST do it while *you* don't have to give it all up. My faith is being challenged and tested these days."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Topic Starter from Message 1
quote:Note that I started this topic in 2006, when I was a bit saner than my frazzled old self is currently. Times are different now in that I am a bit less spiritual and a bit more reactive and snippy due to changes in the world-at-large, the demise of the United States (My Uncle Sam who I always counted on to take care of me rather than becoming a liberal stoolie trying to please all of the people globally as well as nationally) and my own aging and inability to take care of myself as well as I need to do. So let's review the questions I originally asked, my answers to them, and my reactions throughout this topic to my EvC foils. So....during prayer and meditation... I think that my answers were more introspective then than they are now. I am old and scared. If anything, my prayers are more humble now than they were in 2006, even though my outer personality is more selfish and desperate. One question that I have currently for Theodoric and his charge that my entire inner and outer personality is based on assumptions is how does this differ from anybody else? Facts can only take you so far. Also, I try and separate my spiritual beliefs from carnal Republican philosophies. EvC helps me to confront what I don't like to confront...namely selfishness, greed, irrational hatred, or bitterness towards things that I don't consider fair or right."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Point noted. Perhaps we are trying to convince ourselves or re examine our own beliefs. I neverhad any reason to even question whether Jesus existed or not until you started telling me that He wanted me to give it all up. No wonder there are fewer true Christians than is claimed.
Doesn't it seem that most of those who do try to "prove God" - e.g. YECs (fundies in general) - are lacking in "inner joy"? Don't they come off as angry, arrogant, sour on life? Maybe "conversations with God" should emphasize listening rather than talking. Maybe then they'd hear Him telling them to smarten up. The only question there is what it means to smarten up and what it means to have a double standard where we are expected to be spiritual martyrs whereas the bloke who used to belive (and claims he was every bit as aware of and close to Jesus as I am now) can now skip off with a free pass and be his own authority---in "communion" with other critical thinkers who claim that there is no God and that nobody else will fix humans and the planet except for the humans on the planet. It makes me tempted to publically deny God is real just like they do so that I would be under no charge to sell all that I have while these arrogant liberals think that they have it all figured out and that the conservatives are indirectly responsible for everything wrong with the world. This real life snapshot of what I see nearly EVERY day at my job in ever increasing similarities was not the fault of conservatives. Who is it that wants to defund the police?
Seattle Is Dying You guys claim that we Christians *should* be out witnessing to these people with little more than the clothes on our back! Ninety percent of these people have substance abuse problems. They care little for the rest of society and would steal from their own Mother. Yet Jesus promises that He will give us the power to fight these spiritual wars and win back the souls of the damned. Funny how it never worked here...where our members are by and large prosperous. And what is the secular solution to homelessness? Oh, that's right---defund the police and raise taxes on wealthy conservatives!! Got it. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: God forbid we put a face on it!! Better we treat it as if we use it and in fact contemplated it originally. Zeus forbids that *we* were created by "It". So you never saw the face of Jesus? Perhaps He can be found on those lawless streets of Seattle. Then again, you would claim that He commanded that we be poor before we could help them. Let's see how the secular groups do. The "inner joy" doesn't depend on an external cause. Get it whatever way you can - by meditation, by flying a kite, by teaching - but don't spoil it by trying to put a face on it. Listen to the silence but don't talk to it. If you can get most of them off of drugs and be aware that stealing from society is WRONG, I will be impressed. No face needed."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
quoteCritical thinking and agnosticism certainly wouldn't help change me... that's for sure. Add by Edit: I can hear jar now: "Throw Prayer Away". We all would do well to pray that jar is ok. We have lost enough people through natural causes around here. My guess (and hope) is that it is so darn hot in Deep South Texas that jar avoids the computer and took a breather. Or he and his sister took a vacation to someplace cool(er). Or maybe he jess sits next to the air conditioner! Edited by Phat, . "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Conservatives' ideas concerning return on investment are individual and concrete. Liberal's ideas help everybody...except perhaps them individually. But they are unafraid to let the government tax and handle the social problems. In fact, I suspect it's likely the reason that the commodities are not rising like they used to do when inflation reared its ugly head. They would nearly prefer government management of fiat currencies and suppress investments that promote a speculative and solid return to individuals who invest rather than social needs at large.
That's why the conservatives when in power squander public resources to help businesses in order to guarantee a tangible return whereas liberals throw money at everyone and everything that can potentially help everyone collectively and everything which they claim will eventually rise in value. For a homeless situation, we have to trust that decriminalizing the activity, (even if it affects private business) and providing money and social programs is the answer. The return on investment is assumed, and there is no timeline for when that return will generate."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Poverty is an attitude. Poverty is giving up and letting another vibe run your head.Throwing money at it wont change the attitude of the people being given the money, but it sure might change the attitude of the people you are taking it from to get the money in the first place. LET THE PEOPLE WHO WANT IT FIXED (THROUGH MONEY) FIX IT VOLUNTARILY AND WILLINGLY. (JUST AS YOU ADVOCATE THE Christians giving it all up and that the rule does not apply to others) This is ringos double standard.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: No, I want the right to grab "as much as I can" rather than having an authoritarian government try and legislate what's best for me. I want them to keep their hands off of the projects that make oil and gas cheaper for all of us and I want them to quit forcing me to pay the bills they create which they can't even afford....nor can any of us. Creating money out of thin air only causes its value....for all of us...to drop. And as our old friend jar used to remind us...the bill will get paid.
You just want to grab all you can and look down on people who can't grab as much as you. ringo writes: Sez you. The same guy who recommended that ALL of us follow the message rather than the messenger. It's your job too, Pal. YOU GUYS, who claim to believe in Jesus but refuse to do what He said, have failed to take care of the poor. That was YOUR job, not society's as a whole. The Double Standard, however, is that you want all of us to adapt to your government model. I can simply tell you that your model may not be MY model. And that's freedom. Not authoritarianism disguised as altruism.
hy would anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus do what He said? Why would (or should) anyone who questions the integrity of AOC, Kamela, and doddering old Uncle Joe be forced to do what they try and say? That's not selfish. (well it might be) BUT that's freedom. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, not a mandate that all must follow. And by the way, I dont want Trump back either."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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