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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 316 of 513 (890625)
01-08-2022 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by AZPaul3
01-08-2022 4:41 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
That depends on who is looking at the data and how.
That applies to other branches of science as well.
Edited by drlove, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2022 4:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2022 8:40 PM drlove has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 317 of 513 (890630)
01-08-2022 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by drlove
01-08-2022 7:43 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
I don't care about your cherry picked misleading tripe. The CDC's assessment that the vaccines work is good enough proof of their efficacy.
Add European Union to those opposing your bullshit.
Covid-19 vaccine sceptics slammed across Europe as Omicron rages | The Straits Times
Again with the lies. Do you ever stop being this dumb?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by drlove, posted 01-08-2022 7:43 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 2:49 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 318 of 513 (890632)
01-08-2022 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by drlove
01-08-2022 7:44 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
That depends on who is looking at the data and how.
And if there are questions among a majority of the experts then the science is not settled.
When the science is settled as it is with anthropic global warming then attempting to deny that settled science is just plain stupid. You obviously fit the bill.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by drlove, posted 01-08-2022 7:44 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 2:59 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 319 of 513 (890633)
01-08-2022 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by drlove
01-08-2022 7:43 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
Sorry. With Omicron the vaccines might as well be sugar pills.
Because we did not contain and mitigate the virus from the start!
Give a virus fertile populations within which to propagate end evolve and you will get variants that can circumvent all our best efforts.
So who's to blame? The scientists and public health officials trying to contain and control the disease? Or the fucking stupid idiots who do their best to improve the virus' chances of evolving into ever better variants to defeat our best efforts against them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by drlove, posted 01-08-2022 7:43 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
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drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 320 of 513 (890635)
01-09-2022 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by AZPaul3
01-08-2022 8:33 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
So you pick links that support one side of the issue. I can pick thousands of links that support the other side. The problem is that it is supposed to be a matter of medical science. It is only about belief. That principle applies to some other facets of science as well. Belief very much enters into interpreting the data. Can you admit that much?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2022 8:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by AZPaul3, posted 01-09-2022 7:48 AM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 321 of 513 (890636)
01-09-2022 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by AZPaul3
01-08-2022 8:40 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
quote:
And if there are questions among a majority of the experts then the science is not settled
Now you appeal to the majority rather than fact and the scientific method. Nothing is settled.
quote:
When the science is settled as it is with anthropic global warming
In what way is it settled? The fact climate is changing, or that it seems man is impacting in some way the changes? That is not what matters. Now when you offer trends in weather that you date over great time, that is belief based. When you predict the future and how it will change that is belief based. If all you are talking about is fairly short term changes in the last few hundred years or something, well, that may be another story. So using a broad and misused term like climate change is really useless. Did Al Gore's prophesies come true? If you want to discuss some specific aspect of the sciences that deal in weather and trends and etc well, probably that is another thread. This thread seems to be about belief as it relates to the scientific method.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by AZPaul3, posted 01-08-2022 8:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by AZPaul3, posted 01-09-2022 9:19 AM drlove has not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 322 of 513 (890637)
01-09-2022 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by dwise1
01-08-2022 8:45 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
quote:
Because we did not contain and mitigate the virus from the start!
Give a virus fertile populations within which to propagate end evolve and you will get variants that can circumvent all our best efforts.
So who's to blame? The scientists and public health officials trying to contain and control the disease? Or the fucking stupid idiots who do their best to improve the virus' chances of evolving into ever better variants to defeat our best efforts against them?
It is a matter of belief as to who is to blame. Some suggest the omicron variant started with vaccinated people and could be partially a result of the vaccination!
First known U.S. Omicron case found in fully vaccinated overseas traveler | Reuters
First Omicron case reported in Ireland, variant found in person back from southern Africa | Rest of the World News
Coronavirus: Six cases of Omicron variant detected in Scotland – The Irish Times
etc etc. As we know vaccinations are required for travel.
Who really knows? Could natural immunity be better? Could people naturally immune fare better than the overly vaxxed people? It is all a matter of belief. Where is the facts and science based on testing and repeating and etc? As mentioned the ones involved in the vaccine agenda (lockdowns,mandates,endless boosters, etc) have tried to hide the test results for a lifetime! Is that science in your mind? They also demanded total immunity from prosecution for the deaths and serious injuries they knew would come! Is that science?
I will point out that those who scream against people who chose to not believe blindly and obey do appear to me to be very religious!
Edited by drlove, : No reason given.

Edited by drlove, : No reason given.

Edited by drlove, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 332 by Theodoric, posted 01-09-2022 11:25 AM drlove has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 323 of 513 (890638)
01-09-2022 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by drlove
01-09-2022 3:06 AM


It is a matter of fact not belief.
It is a matter of fact rather than belief that the fault lies totally and completely with the unvaccinated.
Those who refuse to get vaccinated and are eligible to get vaccinated are quite simply nothing but mutation factories.
They should have every right to not get vaccinated but if they decide not to get vaccinated then they should not be allowed into the general population.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 3:06 AM drlove has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 324 of 513 (890639)
01-09-2022 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by drlove
01-09-2022 2:49 AM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
So you pick links that support one side of the issue. I can pick thousands of links that support the other side.
Issue here is my link was about the science of vaccines and the physical harm you anti-human bastards are causing by being stupid and spreading the disease.
Your links, and, no, I don't care how many you and your masters care to fake up here, are political screeds meant to obscure reality.
The problem is that it is supposed to be a matter of medical science.
Which it is but you cannot admit it since the science not only says you are wrong but you are fucking stupid.
Belief very much enters into interpreting the data. Can you admit that much?
Every real scientist understands bias in the collection and analysis of data. That is why the protocols of real, actual, scientific study are so strict on methodology. And since we know humans are fallible and (as you show with your sources) dumb as a bag of rocks there is the requirement for a scientist to open the kimono and show all, the methods, the raw data, the analysis and the conclusions.
Your side doesn't do any of that. You idiots don't do science.
Science is what the consensus of the knowledge experts agree is shown from the facts. And the vast majority of the real immunologists the world over are telling you your anti-vaxx bullshit is not only wrong but is dangerous.
Your anti-vaxx, anti-mask, anti-humane views are known by the real, actual, scientific community to be wrong, dangerous and just plain stupid. Can you admit that much?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 2:49 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 2:33 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 325 of 513 (890642)
01-09-2022 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by drlove
01-09-2022 2:59 AM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
Now you appeal to the majority rather than fact and the scientific method.
God you are so ignorant. How do you think we know whether you’ve done science properly or not? Just take your word for it? How do we know these "facts" you say you uncovered are real?
Here you are trying to destroy science and you don’t even know what it is, how it works in this species. You’re an idiot.
We have knowledge experts look at what you did. Peer review. They will tear into the very bowels of your methods, data collection, analysis, conclusions to determine if you have done the science right. Then we have other groups of knowledge experts scrutinize the work of the reviewers. If the consensus among all these experts, those scientists that actually work and study in that field (not internet mis-educated politically motivated nazi wannabes like you and your handlers), if that consensus of the experts concludes the science is acceptable then your conclusions are tentatively accepted and the data, the facts and conclusions are used to predict future outcomes.
Yeah, bunches of real scientists, acknowledged by their peers as experts in the field, determine whether your science is good or crap. And they do so by consensus, by the voice of thousands worldwide. You got some kind of problem with that, numbnut?
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 2:59 AM drlove has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Admin, posted 01-09-2022 9:31 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 326 of 513 (890643)
01-09-2022 9:27 AM


Moderator Request
Someone argued that providing links didn't mean much because others could find links arguing the opposite. This is a very astute argument, and the issue was long ago institutionalized in the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
It might be helpful if someone explained some things about vaccine and covid:
  • How do vaccines work (I've observed what seems to be a lack of understanding on the part of some of what breakthrough infections mean, which requires an understanding of how vaccines actually work)?
  • How do we know the covid vaccines work?
  • How do we know the unvaccinated are catching and dying from covid at a much higher rate than the vaccinated?
I am placing the onus of proof on those who believe in vaccines. If they work and are effective, then the evidence should be out there. For an example of what I don't think is proof or effective argument, referencing Fauci saying, "We know the vaccines work," isn't an approach that I view as appropriate. This is an example of the fallacy of argument from authority. Please avoid this and other obvious fallacies.
Please use facts, evidence, reason and argumentation, and only use links as supporting references. We try to discourage "argument via link" here.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 327 of 513 (890644)
01-09-2022 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by AZPaul3
01-09-2022 9:19 AM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
AZPaul3 writes:
God you are so ignorant.
I'd like to ask you to back off a little more. Whether your assessment carries any truth should become apparent through your argumentation. The last part of rule 10 of the Forum Guidelines applies here:
  1. The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by AZPaul3, posted 01-09-2022 9:19 AM AZPaul3 has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 328 of 513 (890645)
01-09-2022 9:53 AM


Covid-19 death rate between vaccinated vs un-vaccinated by nation.
Here is a study, updated as recently as December 27, 2021, of the death rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated by nation. It also includes an explanation of why the rate rather than absolute number is both relevant and essential.
The conclusion based on actual data is that vaccinated or un-vaccinated is the single biggest determinate between the two datasets.
And here is a study from August 31, 2021 that shows that hospitalization are also far higher in unvaccinated populations than vaccinated.
These are not matters of belief but rather cold hard facts, commonly referred to as REALITY.
Edited by jar, : fix quoteboxes.

My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by drlove, posted 01-09-2022 2:46 PM jar has replied
 Message 404 by Percy, posted 01-10-2022 7:30 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 329 of 513 (890646)
01-09-2022 10:53 AM


Seriously? At this point in the game do we really need to provide this forum with evidence of the obvious?
If I'm talking about the JWST flying out to L2 do I really need to debunk flat-Earth theory first?
Because of the hyper activity on this subject all over the planet vaccine effectiveness has been documented not just in scientific studies but in news media around the world and has been known for quite some time now. It should be an axiom not up for debate, especially in response to idiots who wouldn't acknowledge the data anyway.
But if you insist:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2110605
An early editorial about studies on the covid-19 vaccines, effectiveness and public policy in NEJM. Peer reviewed. Verified. Actual real conclusions on effectiveness.
quote:
As of June 19, 2021, Covid-19 vaccines are estimated to have prevented 7.2 million infections and 27,000 deaths in England alone.12 Similarly, in the United States, an estimated 279,000 deaths and up to 1.25 million hospitalizations have been averted as of the end of June 2021.13 As the delta variant affects various countries, including the United States, the current imperative is to vaccinate as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Underserved and at-risk communities must not be neglected when implementing this strategy.
And here is one early study on the effectiveness of available vaccines on the Omicron variant in South Africa.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2119270
quote:
During the proxy omicron period, we found a vaccine effectiveness of 70% (95% confidence interval [CI], 62 to 76), a finding that was supported by the results of all sensitivity tests. This measure of vaccine effectiveness was significantly different from that during the comparator period, when the rate was 93% (95% CI, 90 to 94) against hospitalization for Covid-19
Others can slog through providing additional cites chapter and verse if necessary.
The evidence of effectiveness has been provided, is known, has been known and should not be an issue in these discussions.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 330 of 513 (890647)
01-09-2022 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by AZPaul3
01-09-2022 10:53 AM


belief vs unbelief
An important point is that people are free to believe or not-believe the data.
But believe or not-believe does not change the facts, the reality, the data or the death and hospitalization rates.
Reality always wins.
The bill always gets paid.
The willfully stupid people that do not get vaccinated endanger all of us but most likely we will do fine while they will simply be dead.
NMP
Edited by jar, : -s

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by AZPaul3, posted 01-09-2022 10:53 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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