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Author | Topic: Belief Versus The Scientific Method | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
vimesey writes: Not sure who this "bearded fellow" whom you refer to is.
Saying that you have faith that some bearded fellow with a sadistic history wished the sun into existence, as a result of some inconsistent stories written down in the Bronze Age, is using a different meaning of the word faith.ringo writes: Thousands, eh? I may reject the book, but you reject Jesus...the central character. You claim a "get out of responsibility" card because you don't believe that Jesus is real or can help you. For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed.
There are thousands of gods. Your apologist's claims do nothing to support one over the others. ringo writes: As long as you call ALL of them made-up, I can't convince you of anything.
you can't show any difference between your made-up god and any other made-up god.ringo writes:
You do believe in the Dusty Old Book, so allow me to quote that.
The human mind is the source of all gods. Acts 17:16-30 ESV writes: It's amazing how not much has changed. These days people still worship things made by men. That new space telescope is the hope for the future for many. AZPaul3 likely worships human potential and distant galaxies if he could be charged with worshipping anything. God will not overlook such ignorance veiled behind education and "evidence". The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book. 16Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new. Paul Addresses the Areopagus 22So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,c 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for“‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ 29Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Oh, but that's right! You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer. You then turn around, hold me to giving everything up while you all stay nice and warm in your houses, essentially *worship* human potential and creativity as the sole hope for mankind, and scold me for ignoring a dusty old book which you yourselves believe was entirely human-inspired and compiled. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book. If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence.
Phat writes: For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed. If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence of some power other than humans.
Phat writes: You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer. What does "placing yourself under God's authority" even mean? Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook?My Website: My Website
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vimesey Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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Well, I'm going by the myriad paintings there are of God in human form, where he always has a beard. (Not that the Bible confirms he does, as far as I'm aware).
Not having met him myself, that's as much as I've got to go on. (I've got a beard myself (I keep it short), but that's because I grew it on holiday one year, and it turns out my wife is very keen on it, so I've kept it going (for totally un-selfish reasons, obviously...).Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book. jar writes: You yourself have previously said that no one has presented the evidence sufficient for your criteria. All I am saying (which you know as you have read the book) is that Paul, converted from being Saul by Jesus Christ previously states that God is not unknown. ringo claims that all "gods" are human creations and are essentially unknown since both he and you have said that no evidence shows any of them to be known or knowable. You are free to believe the evidence you have chosen to accept but you cannot be a Christian simply by doing what Christ, the character in the book, said to do while not believing in Him. If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence.Well...perhaps you can, but you want the government to mandate that we all feed the less fortunate of the planet, give a percentage of our income higher than what we now give, build back better our modern-day ark, throw God away and move boldly into a new humanist evidence-based future. You threw away the only person/idea/messiah that will be able to make humanity succeed. But I can't give you evidence. Only you can find the evidence. And you won't. jar writes: No. YOU would be able to see the evidence without my help. And you wont.
Phat writes: For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed. If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence of some power other than humans. jar writes: It means believing in a higher power than humans.
Phat writes: You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer. What does "placing yourself under God's authority" even mean? Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook? Why have you dedicated your life to dismissing a known God? Why have you decided to accept only that it is what YOU do that matters? One thing I will say. If you and the humanists do your best and it ends up working, I'll shut up. Until then, you are WRONG until further notice."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Phat writes:
The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book.jar writes: You yourself have previously said that no one has presented the evidence sufficient for your criteria. All I am saying (which you know as you have read the book) is that Paul, converted from being Saul by Jesus Christ previously states that God is not unknown. ringo claims that all "gods" are human creations and are essentially unknown since both he and you have said that no evidence shows any of them to be known or knowable. You are free to believe the evidence you have chosen to accept but you cannot be a Christian simply by doing what Christ, the character in the book, said to do while not believing in Him. If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence.Well...perhaps you can, but you want the government to mandate that we all feed the less fortunate of the planet, give a percentage of our income higher than what we now give, build back better our modern-day ark, throw God away and move boldly into a new humanist evidence-based future. You threw away the only person/idea/messiah that will be able to make humanity succeed. But I can't give you evidence. Only you can find the evidence. And you won't. You have not presented any evidence and it again seems that you do not even know what evidence is. Learn the basics Phat. Quoting passages from a book is only evidence that whoever wrote the book included those lines.
Phat writes: jar writes: No. YOU would be able to see the evidence without my help. And you wont. Phat writes: For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed. If that were true, then you would be able to present that evidence of some power other than humans. But you never present the evidence for us to see, and you can't help us see what you refuse to show.
Phat writes: jar writes: It means believing in a higher power than humans. Phat writes: You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer. What does "placing yourself under God's authority" even mean? What higher power? Do you have any evidence of a higher power or a model, method, means, process, procedure that someone could identify such a higher power?
Phat writes: jar writes: Why have you dedicated your life to dismissing a known God? Why have you decided to accept only that it is what YOU do that matters? Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook? One thing I will say. If you and the humanists do your best and it ends up working, I'll shut up. Until then, you are WRONG until further notice What does that have to do with the question I asked? So yet again, 'Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook?' Edited by jar, : fix quoteboxEdited by jar, : more quotebox stuff. My Website: My Website
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
He's nothing but a lower-than-whale-snot troll.
Don't feed him.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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You believe science is not a matter of belief. You just keep spouting incorrect BS. I have not said anything about my beliefs. Science is based on evidence. Beliefs mess it up every time.
Both doctors in the OP might believe the same, yet they have opposite claims. You have no idea what they believe. One is a scientist using evidence and the other is a fraud using your ignorance and gullibility.
You can't divorce belief from science as much as you may be desperate to do so. Well, actually I can, because that's what I was trained to do. There's no desperation involved, it just comes naturally. Scientists who allow beliefs to influence their work will find that no other scientist will accept that work. That is what is happening with the fraud you are trying to promote, no real scientists will accept anything he says.
Remember theory is never fact! And you clearly don't know a fucking thing about what constitutes a scientific theory (hint: it is not a wild assed guess).
That leaves a lot of room for belief. Your obsession with belief leads me to conclude that you are nothing but a propogandist and a troll.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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drlove Member (Idle past 821 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
Saying that no laws existed as the little blob that would become the universe began it's magic superspurt of growth requires faith. Believing one expert over another about covid requires faith. Believing that all things observed in the natural worls and universe had to have resulted from processes or laws that now exist on earth requires faith. Believing that time exists as we know it in the distant universe requires faith. etc
"Arizona State University physicist Paul Davies has noted that the work of science depends upon beliefs—that the hidden architecture of the universe, all the constants and laws of nature that sustain the scientific enterprise, will hold. As he wrote in his book “The Mind of God: The Scientific Basis for a Rational World”: “Just because the sun has risen every day of your life, there is no guarantee that it will therefore rise tomorrow. The belief that it will—that there are indeed dependable regularities of nature—is an act of faith, but one which is indispensable to the progress of science.” At Its Heart, Science Is Faith-Based Too - WSJ No one appointed you the 'faith czar' that dictates what faith is good or bad. Thank you very much
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drlove Member (Idle past 821 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
The group was a minority, not most Canadians. However the issue is that he claimed of that minority, people are often racists and etc.
" he painted “these people,” the anti-vaxxers, as “often” being women-haters, racists and science-deniers, as well."Rex Murphy: Justin Trudeau's blind hatred of anti-vaxxers | National Post As I said that is hate speech. By the way, since big names in medical science have said the science is not at all on the PMs side, we see people do choose what to believe as science! "In the interview, Trudeau said that "there are people who are opposed to vaccines, that don't believe in science, that are often misogynists, racist." Trudeau went on to say that this was "a small group, and so we have to make a choice, as a leader, as a country. do we tolerate these people? because over 80 percent of people have already done their part." FLASHBACK: Video resurfaces of Trudeau calling anti-vaxxers racists and misogynists | The Post Millennial | thepostmillennial.com
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drlove Member (Idle past 821 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
So we can have faith in things with no beard and that is acceptable and superior?
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drlove Member (Idle past 821 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
You believe science is not based on beliefs. However as the OP shows, people using science believe different things entirely! I have pointed out that interpreting evidence is involved. That involves belief! You need to do more than stamp your feet and protest loudly. Either face facts that belief is very much involved or prove otherwise.
You claim one of the doctors is a fraud. (I assume you mean the one often credited with inventing the mrna vaccine) Sorry, there are hundreds more medical experts, yeah, tens of thousands that agree with him! You need more than a wave here. Tell us what science you are involved in that is devoid of any belief? Maybe you are an exception? Then you rudely suggest that theory is fact? Or..? You can huff and puff till the cows come home, all you offer so far is attitude, presumption, and foaming of the beak.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Then you rudely suggest that theory is fact? Or..? Either your reading comprehension is non-existent or you are a blatant liar, because I suggested no such thing, rudely or otherwise. You and the misinformation you support and the other assholes spreading it have cost tens of thousands of lives. The only silver lining is that it's costing more of your dimwit's lives than rational people's.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
drlove writes:
Good. Progress.
The group was a minority, not most Canadians. As I said that is hate speech.
Well I certainly don't like the sound of it. It does sound like something he really shouldn't have said. But I haven't researched the context have you? Have you looked at what he actually said and considered why he might have said it? You didn't answer my question, are you vaccinated?
By the way, since big names in medical science have said the science is not at all on the PMs side, we see people do choose what to believe as science! Big names eh! Wow! You have no idea how unimpressive that statement sounds to a scientist. Religious people are impressed by authority figures, scientists are impressed by evidence. You need to understand that scientific understanding is developmental. It develops and consolidates over time as new information is uncovered. During the discovery period there are raging arguments between scientists until a consensus forms. Sadly, it's often the case that actions have to be taken by politicians before a consensus is arrived at. Rational people live with this dilemma. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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drlove Member (Idle past 821 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
Not sure where the crossed wire was. I was thinking of the link I posted. Here is a quote
"Wolf Kirchmeir Blind River, Ontario, Canada A theory never becomes a fact. It is an explanation of one or more facts. Tim Lewis Narberth, Pembrokeshire, UK A well-supported evidence-based theory becomes acceptable until disproved. It never evolves to a fact, and that’s a fact. Nick Canning Coleraine, County Londonderry, UK Many scientists, including the late Stephen Hawking, are happy to say that a theory never becomes a fact. It is always an interpretive structure that links facts, which are themselves reproducible experimental observations."When does a theory become a fact and who decides? | New Scientist All the replies here suggest strongly that a theory is not fact. Ever. So rather than rude little vacuous outbursts, try addressing issues if you bother to post. Adults are present. There are many that admit the glaring similarities to science and other belief systems. example: "There are lots of other ways in which science is suspiciously similar to a religion. It has a canon of holy texts. It has its own specialized mysterious language that only initiates can understand. It has an initiation ordeal, call it graduate school, upon which you finish and you get a ceremonial name change. It has a system for the indoctrination of youth. It has deified saints and martyrs, you know Galileo, Newton, Einstein. It has schisms and heretics. It has the faithful lay believers, who actually don’t understand the esoteric knowledge of the religion, but they believe in it anyway. It has a divinatory practice for the attainment of truth, called experimentation. It has a body of ritual built on top of it, that is called technology. I mean the whole thing!" What is the difference between science and religion? – ReviseSociology
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Not sure where the crossed wire was. I was thinking of the link I posted. Here is a quote "Wolf Kirchmeir Blind River, Ontario, Canada A theory never becomes a fact. It is an explanation of one or more facts. Tim Lewis Narberth, Pembrokeshire, UK A well-supported evidence-based theory becomes acceptable until disproved. It never evolves to a fact, and that’s a fact. Nick Canning Coleraine, County Londonderry, UK Many scientists, including the late Stephen Hawking, are happy to say that a theory never becomes a fact. It is always an interpretive structure that links facts, which are themselves reproducible experimental observations."When does a theory become a fact and who decides? All the replies here suggest strongly that a theory is not fact. Ever. So rather than rude little vacuous outbursts, try addressing issues if you bother to post. Adults are present. I have no idea why you are obsessed with the idea that "a theory is not a fact," but I have never implied anything about theories and fact. I did imply that you have no idea what a scientific theory is, and I will make it even plainer, IT IS A FACT THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT CONSTITUTES A SCIENTIFIC THEORY! There are many that admit the glaring similarities to science and other belief systems. example: "There are lots of other ways in which science is suspiciously similar to a religion. It has a canon of holy texts. It has its own specialized mysterious language that only initiates can understand. It has an initiation ordeal, call it graduate school, upon which you finish and you get a ceremonial name change. It has a system for the indoctrination of youth. It has deified saints and martyrs, you know Galileo, Newton, Einstein. It has schisms and heretics. It has the faithful lay believers, who actually don’t understand the esoteric knowledge of the religion, but they believe in it anyway. It has a divinatory practice for the attainment of truth, called experimentation. It has a body of ritual built on top of it, that is called technology. I mean the whole thing!" You and they are completely full of shit. You repeating your bullshit just demonstrates that you don't have a clue what science is or how it is conducted. It's always puzzling what you guys are trying to accomplish by posting this crap. Do you really think you will suddenly convince us that obvious bullshit is true and that we will become your adoring followers?What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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