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Author Topic:   A less bizarre discussion of religious beliefs.
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 5 of 54 (890283)
12-31-2021 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
12-31-2021 10:59 AM


Re: a few preliminaries
I would like to start by outlining a few points I hope you will accept as being axiomatic.
I don't see those as axiomatic.
I do, however, see them as beliefs which are not threatening to anyone.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 12-31-2021 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 12-31-2021 1:25 PM nwr has replied
 Message 42 by Greatest I am, posted 01-06-2022 2:17 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 9 of 54 (890296)
12-31-2021 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
12-31-2021 1:25 PM


Re: a few preliminaries
So they are self-evident to you.
Fair enough. But that's not what I normally mean by "axiomatic".

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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 Message 8 by jar, posted 12-31-2021 1:25 PM jar has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 16 of 54 (890310)
12-31-2021 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 7:50 PM


Are you asking me if it matters if our behavior is governed by nonsensical beliefs? Of course it does.
I take jar's point to be that it is the behaviors that matter. And I mostly agree.
Are beliefs not the cornerstone, the very basis from which our actions emanate?
No, they aren't.
As I see it, what mostly motivates our behavior, is our experience in life. Our beliefs mainly have to do with how we communicate with others.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 7:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 9:32 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 18 of 54 (890312)
12-31-2021 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 9:32 PM


quote:
jar:
Second, that my beliefs will have had some impacts on my behavior over time.
But that is very different from saying that they are the basis from which actions emanate.
quote:
AZPaul3:
And, of course, all of us act in accord with our acculturated personality. It cannot be other than that our beliefs guide our actions.
A child already has an personality before he acquires language. The personality cannot all be based on beliefs.
Only through our beliefs can we be confident in the efficacy of a pending action.
I doubt that. Our beliefs may refect our confidence, but they are not the basis for that confidence.
We don't act without reason and the reasoning we use is dependent on our beliefs.
Reason does not require belief. We can reason about what we do not believe.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 9:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 11:26 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 20 of 54 (890314)
12-31-2021 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 11:26 PM


Are beliefs synonymous with values?
No, they aren't.
They might be related, but they are not synonymous. We can have beliefs about things that don't really matter to us, and we can lack belief about things that do matter.
Any kind of reasoning requires an epistemology, does it not?
No, I don't think so.
I'm rather cynical about the value of epistemology, as it is taught by philosophy departments.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 11:26 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 24 of 54 (890326)
01-01-2022 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by AZPaul3
01-01-2022 12:21 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
I think you are reading too much into what jar says.
To me, it seems more likely that he finds his religious community to be quite congenial. And, were it not for that, he would probably be an atheist.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 12:21 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 1:02 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 26 of 54 (890330)
01-01-2022 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
01-01-2022 1:02 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
He is a humanist already. Not that far a stretch to go secular.
Quite right.
Bring Phat with him.
I'm pretty sure that won't happen.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 1:02 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
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