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Author | Topic: How the Bible Actually Works | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I WILL quote him directly. This is the Book Nook Forum...not the In Your Own Words Forum or the Science Forum. What do they feed you in Saskatchewan anyway?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I await examination of this evidence with bated breath! I can and do know that ALL of the evidence shows that if GOD exists it is not any of the God(s) or god(s) found in any of the so-called religious literature including the Bibles. That is a conclusion Phat supported by ALL of the evidence. So let me get this straight. You have evidence that if God exists, (I am assuming this includes Jesus as God)this means God/Jesus is unlike anything ever taught or written about Him. Same with Coyote, Raven, Bunny, Armadillo, Spaghetti Monster, and Allah dat other human malarkey."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
My reply to the content(s) of the book will be in my own words, if that's what you mean. The books should be coming next week. Let's be patient.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If so, then all that you really believe in is yourself. (and evidence)
It does not matter if the Episcopalians have you on their roster. Based on what you yourself said, all religions are just human-approved clubs anyway. I have my evidence and it is internal. You always ask me how do I know it is God or Jesus....and I say why don't you ask Him? Just because you never park your brain at the door does not mean that others, many of the great men of faith had no problems surrendering."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
We have absolutely no way to even guess what GOD might be like based on ANY evidence. That's another problem with you science-minded humanists. You assume that either everyone understands and gets it or no one understands or can do so. Salvation begins at an individual level. Not everyone will know. The evidence is internal.
We do know that the Bible characterizations of God and god and Jesus vary from story to story which is evidence that what is written is the creation of the author, editors and translators. Were the stories all written at the same time? Why do you rule out progressive understanding? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: jar claims t be Christian based on official membership in a known club. (Episcopal Church) You could also well argue that I don't know God based on my increasingly selfish and unloving behavior and actions. In fact, I am worse than jar because I *do* claim that God is knowable whereby he does not, citing no evidence nor way to know God. I counter that argument by claiming that evidence-based science is either all in (that a fact would be known and knowable by everyone objectively) or all out (that God does not exist and is unknowable pending evidence.) I would argue that Jesus Himself said that the road to salvation (and perhaps knowledge or enlightenment) is narrow and few find it while the broad path of what He calls destruction is clogged with masses of humanity. when jar asks God, how will he know it's God? Should he ask you? That would at least be neatly circular. I won't claim to be on the narrow path yet. I too am on that broad path of destruction...both physically and spiritually. But I will claim that I have at one time met Jesus and I am trying to return to my first love (Him) spiritually even as I try and save my life physically through proper medical attention and diet."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: Which god, Percy? You all seem to agree that any of them are equally valid. God help you. I believe that only One can help us. Any others with any power at all are rebellious spirit beings."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZ writes: The ideal, at least in my mind, is that Phat let the scales fall from his eyes and embrace the reality of the universe and the humanist/science mindset it engenders thus motivating him to more realistically thus more effectively attack his health problems. That's not happening. A mountain of apologetics blocks his view and focus on the one inner person that you really want to be, or that you believe is the best effort in life. Well... The ideal in *my* mind is that you stop all of this (unknowing)idolatry (weed, porn, magical belief in cosmology as a universal answer, Arizona vortexes, and mysterious caves and artifacts, and whatever else you inwardly feel better when employing. Of course, you and many here are so anti-theistic that you will be among the last to recognize that there is but One God, known through the character of Jesus Christ and that it has nothing to do with religion, church politics, Republicans, or American Exceptionalism. Likely jar is right in that most of the goats will be Christians, but he seems to think that belief is unimportant and that behavior toward others is key. His idea of God and my idea of God are entirely different. In fact, most of you reject God because the Deity failed to produce conclusive evidence for you to examine. Perhaps he is right that in the end, if there is a judge at all, our behavior will be judged far harsher than our beliefs. ringo and others accuse me of rejecting the dusty old book when the demands become uncomfortable. I know of nobody here at EvC who would give everything away and trust either God (if they believe) or the universe to provide for and take care of them. And perhaps thats a weakness of Biblical Christians(people who believe in a literal Bible, an exclusive connection with God through Jesus Christ) and ironically usually a selfish streak in them that would have them protect the assets and interests of their family first...before humanistically helping the world-at-large. In some ways, you guys are closer to the Jesus you dont believe in than I am to the Jesus whom I DO believe in. In other ways, you ae blissfully unaware of the spiritual war and intrinsic evil in the world unless it is defined through Republicans. You don't believe in any sort of Original Sin (selfishness, competition, and hatred of other people). I don't believe that I have to be selfish or greedy, but I would rather allow that than to give everything up to a godless secular (and self-proclaimed benevolent) government. As far as taking care of myself, I trust science and medicine first."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Of course, being an Ex-Mormon, Mr.Deity never really knew God anyway. His mousely little commentaries have likely earned him some extra income.
Its not impossible to know God, however. Moses did. Surely he didnt simply talk to himself while on the mountain. Richard Carrier has no clue who God is, yet attempts to disprove him as a calling..as well as a source of income. In other news, my book came in the mail today. I believe that you already read Chapter 1. I will now proceed to comment (in my own words) what the author says of note in each chapter."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy, in another thread writes: Both you and jar seem unable to see God at all....as more than a character in a book, at any rate. And you are hopefully joking when you claim that Mr.Deity even understands God enough to attempt to mimic Him. I already know your reply! (If jar doesnt beat you to it) Oh wait....he already did!
Mr. Deity *is* God. I think you're confusing the actor/writer with the character, and you've ignored the entire point of my post, that the suffering God has inflicted on you only makes you love him more and sing his praises more loudly. jar writes: The point Phat is that the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like. They created Gods that were like the strong man, or prince, or tyrant or friend, or whatever struck their corporate fancy.If Christianity is to have any relevance and value then Christians need to understand it as a path, a calling, and(a) job description. GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented. I will never convince anyone at EvC that believers (some, at any rate) have had an encounter with God. I ask myself why I even keep trying.
jar, again emphasized writes: Perhaps you have a point in that you believe all descriptions of God are made up. I do not believe that this is true. Call me crazy, but I say to get a clue. You all will have opportunities in your lives to change your mind. And it won't be I who convinces you. GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented. Edited by Phat, : changed direction"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: First off, there is no "God" found anywhere other than human descriptions. Wouldnt it be more accurate to say that the human description(s) of an encounter with God as they understood Him differ and are exclusive throughout time? The God described in Genesis 1 is totally different and mutually exclusive from the God found in Genesis 2&3. Go through the Bible and what you find are descriptions of God that are tailored to fit the narrative. There is absolutely NO uniformity or consistency. You seem to frame the issue presupposing that1) God is found only in scripture. There are many mutually exclusive descriptions of Him. 2) God can only be found in the books. 3) "the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like" The fact that you frame it this way belies your presupposition that God is a human product, period. And it is at that point that I will always disagree and challenge your assumption. To your credit, it is indeed true that my argument is designed to reinforce my belief and worldview and in attempting to get others to consider it. You always reframe the issues based on what evidence you have (what the Bible says) and on logic, reason, and *skepticism*. (Not reality.....the jury is not universally in). Of course, you can and do conveniently handwave the claims of believers as delusional and fantasy-based. Your arguments never change. I'll be damned if mine ever will! Go ahead and call *us* crazy!
jar writes: Apparently I never will because I never can. My arguments must be unevidenced and unreasonable, but I would then ask any of you directly why the concept of God (Through Jesus Christ....yes, the Christian One) is unreasonable. WE all know it isn't objective nor evidence-based, though many believers would argue that they became convinced by "evidence" in the way of experience.
But Phat, you really don't try. I and others point to the evidence while you NEVER bring either evidence or reasoned argument to support your assertions. jar writes: In my mind, a search for validating a belief does not involve the critically thinking step of attempting to falsify the search.
Throw God Away. jar writes: Of that list, only the Jew is usually included with the Christians. Anybody can "make up" a Higher Power. In AA, they even claim that your higher power can be anything you want it to be. So let us look for differences among the human categories within this list. You claim to have actually met god and to know god yet every other believer in every other religion can and does make the same claim. What factors might make your claim more valid than that of a Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, or Satanist?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
LOL.
They called Jesus crazy too, although He even outranks Augustine!
jar writes: I'd have to think about that... Christianity in fact is about the most inconsistent of ALL the major religions when it comes to descriptions of the God they claim to worship. So dwise1, why is the concept of Jesus as God (Given that at least One God *should* exist) so unreasonable."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Messianic Jews would disagree. And based on what I've read, Jews don't presume to *know* what G-d does and does not have. They rejected Jesus as Messiah, not as possible "Son". He was one of them. You really are crazy; Jews KNOW that God has no son. Period. Full stop. Do you ever think about what you post?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Oh I'm convinced! I am unafraid to question God, but I never have doubts. It is you guys who keep trying to introduce doubts into my thought process. You're trying to convince yourself, not anybody else. Everything in the world that we live in centers around Jesus Christ. I'm not talking about religion, either. You will of course ask me for a reasoned argument. How about 1 Peter 2:4-8 writes: See? This scripture not only mentions Jesus as the chief cornerstone (and Capstone which the builders rejected, preferring the eye of Baal.....ref dollar bill) but it emphasizes the message. I realize that you have been right all along regarding my need to listen to Jesus. I am simply challenging you in regards to doing the same rather than throwing away God's Son simply to be humanist imitations of the Creator. In that regard, you are building on human logic, reason, and perceived reality and ignoring the Creator....but I suppose you could argue that following the message will prevent your damnation. I never liked the idea of a God Who sends people to hell. For the record, I believe that if hell exists, the only way we would end up there is by us rejecting the message. In essence, we send ourselves there. You will likely argue that any "God" worth their salt would *not create attractive nuisances nor allow *anyone* to fail. As you come to him, the living Stone-rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him- 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion,a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejectedhas become the capstone," 8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumbleand a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message which is also what they were destined for."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: The jury is still out on whether or not it will ultimately work. I'll stick with my beliefs, thank you.
no one here is advocating humanist behavior to gain salvation or avoid damnation but rather simply because it is the only method that has been shown to work.Tangle writes: You are not the first nor likely the last human who, wise in their own eyes, persecutes Jesus. Your version of jesus is a charlatan. By far the most dangerous poster here though is jar. He preaches a gospel not found elsewhere. Most of you won't find out until later...hopefully not too late."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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