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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 137 (889695)
12-11-2021 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
12-11-2021 11:27 AM


Re: Trust The Source rather than Ditching Him
I WILL quote him directly. This is the Book Nook Forum...not the In Your Own Words Forum or the Science Forum. What do they feed you in Saskatchewan anyway?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:27 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:51 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 137 (889715)
12-11-2021 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
12-11-2021 11:43 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
jar writes:
I can and do know that ALL of the evidence shows that if GOD exists it is not any of the God(s) or god(s) found in any of the so-called religious literature including the Bibles.
That is a conclusion Phat supported by ALL of the evidence.
I await examination of this evidence with bated breath!
So let me get this straight. You have evidence that if God exists, (I am assuming this includes Jesus as God)this means God/Jesus is unlike anything ever taught or written about Him. Same with Coyote, Raven, Bunny, Armadillo, Spaghetti Monster, and Allah dat other human malarkey.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 11:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 3:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 137 (889716)
12-11-2021 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
12-11-2021 11:51 AM


Re: Trust The Source rather than Ditching Him
My reply to the content(s) of the book will be in my own words, if that's what you mean. The books should be coming next week. Let's be patient.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:51 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 137 (889736)
12-12-2021 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
12-11-2021 3:08 PM


Re: if there is Evidence no belief is required.
If so, then all that you really believe in is yourself. (and evidence)
It does not matter if the Episcopalians have you on their roster.
Based on what you yourself said, all religions are just human-approved clubs anyway.
I have my evidence and it is internal. You always ask me how do I know it is God or Jesus....and I say why don't you ask Him?
Just because you never park your brain at the door does not mean that others, many of the great men of faith had no problems surrendering.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 3:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 12-12-2021 3:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 12-13-2021 10:56 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 137 (889737)
12-12-2021 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
12-11-2021 3:08 PM


Re: if there is Evidence no belief is required.
We have absolutely no way to even guess what GOD might be like based on ANY evidence.
That's another problem with you science-minded humanists. You assume that either everyone understands and gets it or no one understands or can do so.
Salvation begins at an individual level. Not everyone will know. The evidence is internal.
We do know that the Bible characterizations of God and god and Jesus vary from story to story which is evidence that what is written is the creation of the author, editors and translators.
Were the stories all written at the same time? Why do you rule out progressive understanding?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 3:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2021 4:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 56 by jar, posted 12-12-2021 7:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 137 (889929)
12-15-2021 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Percy
12-13-2021 7:54 PM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Percy writes:
when jar asks God, how will he know it's God? Should he ask you? That would at least be neatly circular.
jar claims t be Christian based on official membership in a known club. (Episcopal Church) You could also well argue that I don't know God based on my increasingly selfish and unloving behavior and actions. In fact, I am worse than jar because I *do* claim that God is knowable whereby he does not, citing no evidence nor way to know God. I counter that argument by claiming that evidence-based science is either all in (that a fact would be known and knowable by everyone objectively) or all out (that God does not exist and is unknowable pending evidence.) I would argue that Jesus Himself said that the road to salvation (and perhaps knowledge or enlightenment) is narrow and few find it while the broad path of what He calls destruction is clogged with masses of humanity.
I won't claim to be on the narrow path yet. I too am on that broad path of destruction...both physically and spiritually. But I will claim that I have at one time met Jesus and I am trying to return to my first love (Him) spiritually even as I try and save my life physically through proper medical attention and diet.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 12-13-2021 7:54 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Percy, posted 12-16-2021 8:20 AM Phat has replied
 Message 67 by jar, posted 12-16-2021 9:11 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 12-16-2021 11:00 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2021 11:34 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 137 (889934)
12-16-2021 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Percy
12-16-2021 8:20 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Percy writes:
God help you.
Which god, Percy? You all seem to agree that any of them are equally valid.
I believe that only One can help us. Any others with any power at all are rebellious spirit beings.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Percy, posted 12-16-2021 8:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Percy, posted 12-16-2021 1:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 137 (889937)
12-16-2021 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by AZPaul3
12-16-2021 11:34 AM


Re: Resolving A Challenge.
AZ writes:
The ideal, at least in my mind, is that Phat let the scales fall from his eyes and embrace the reality of the universe and the humanist/science mindset it engenders thus motivating him to more realistically thus more effectively attack his health problems. That's not happening. A mountain of apologetics blocks his view and focus on the one inner person that you really want to be, or that you believe is the best effort in life.
Well... The ideal in *my* mind is that you stop all of this (unknowing)
idolatry (weed, porn, magical belief in cosmology as a universal answer, Arizona vortexes, and mysterious caves and artifacts, and whatever else you inwardly feel better when employing. Of course, you and many here are so anti-theistic that you will be among the last to recognize that there is but One God, known through the character of Jesus Christ and that it has nothing to do with religion, church politics, Republicans, or American Exceptionalism. Likely jar is right in that most of the goats will be Christians, but he seems to think that belief is unimportant and that behavior toward others is key.
His idea of God and my idea of God are entirely different. In fact, most of you reject God because the Deity failed to produce conclusive evidence for you to examine.
Perhaps he is right that in the end, if there is a judge at all, our behavior will be judged far harsher than our beliefs. ringo and others accuse me of rejecting the dusty old book when the demands become uncomfortable. I know of nobody here at EvC who would give everything away and trust either God (if they believe) or the universe to provide for and take care of them.
And perhaps thats a weakness of Biblical Christians(people who believe in a literal Bible, an exclusive connection with God through Jesus Christ) and ironically usually a selfish streak in them that would have them protect the assets and interests of their family first...before humanistically helping the world-at-large.
In some ways, you guys are closer to the Jesus you dont believe in than I am to the Jesus whom I DO believe in. In other ways, you ae blissfully unaware of the spiritual war and intrinsic evil in the world unless it is defined through Republicans.
You don't believe in any sort of Original Sin (selfishness, competition, and hatred of other people). I don't believe that I have to be selfish or greedy, but I would rather allow that than to give everything up to a godless secular (and self-proclaimed benevolent) government.
As far as taking care of myself, I trust science and medicine first.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2021 11:34 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2021 12:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 77 by nwr, posted 12-16-2021 1:19 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 78 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2021 3:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 12-17-2021 11:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 137 (889944)
12-17-2021 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Percy
12-16-2021 1:06 PM


Chapter One
Of course, being an Ex-Mormon, Mr.Deity never really knew God anyway. His mousely little commentaries have likely earned him some extra income.
Its not impossible to know God, however. Moses did. Surely he didnt simply talk to himself while on the mountain.
Richard Carrier has no clue who God is, yet attempts to disprove him as a calling..as well as a source of income.
In other news, my book came in the mail today. I believe that you already read Chapter 1.
I will now proceed to comment (in my own words) what the author says of note in each chapter.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Percy, posted 12-16-2021 1:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2021 5:24 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 12-17-2021 2:43 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 137 (890027)
12-22-2021 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Percy
12-17-2021 2:43 PM


About characters in books....
Percy, in another thread writes:
Mr. Deity *is* God. I think you're confusing the actor/writer with the character, and you've ignored the entire point of my post, that the suffering God has inflicted on you only makes you love him more and sing his praises more loudly.
Both you and jar seem unable to see God at all....as more than a character in a book, at any rate. And you are hopefully joking when you claim that Mr.Deity even understands God enough to attempt to mimic Him. I already know your reply! (If jar doesnt beat you to it) Oh wait....he already did!
jar writes:
The point Phat is that the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like. They created Gods that were like the strong man, or prince, or tyrant or friend, or whatever struck their corporate fancy.
If Christianity is to have any relevance and value then Christians need to understand it as a path, a calling, and(a) job description.
GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented.
I will never convince anyone at EvC that believers (some, at any rate) have had an encounter with God. I ask myself why I even keep trying.
jar, again emphasized writes:
GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented.
Perhaps you have a point in that you believe all descriptions of God are made up. I do not believe that this is true. Call me crazy, but I say to get a clue. You all will have opportunities in your lives to change your mind. And it won't be I who convinces you.
Edited by Phat, : changed direction

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 12-17-2021 2:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2021 3:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 86 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2021 8:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 87 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 8:24 AM Phat has replied
 Message 88 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-22-2021 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 12-22-2021 10:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 91 by dwise1, posted 12-22-2021 10:30 AM Phat has replied
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 12-23-2021 11:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 137 (890037)
12-22-2021 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
12-22-2021 8:24 AM


Re: About characters in books....
jar writes:
The God described in Genesis 1 is totally different and mutually exclusive from the God found in Genesis 2&3. Go through the Bible and what you find are descriptions of God that are tailored to fit the narrative. There is absolutely NO uniformity or consistency.
First off, there is no "God" found anywhere other than human descriptions. Wouldnt it be more accurate to say that the human description(s) of an encounter with God as they understood Him differ and are exclusive throughout time?
You seem to frame the issue presupposing that
1) God is found only in scripture. There are many mutually exclusive descriptions of Him.
2) God can only be found in the books.
3) "the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like"
The fact that you frame it this way belies your presupposition that God is a human product, period. And it is at that point that I will always disagree and challenge your assumption. To your credit, it is indeed true that my argument is designed to reinforce my belief and worldview and in attempting to get others to consider it. You always reframe the issues based on what evidence you have (what the Bible says) and on logic, reason, and *skepticism*. (Not reality.....the jury is not universally in). Of course, you can and do conveniently handwave the claims of believers as delusional and fantasy-based. Your arguments never change. I'll be damned if mine ever will! Go ahead and call *us* crazy!
jar writes:
But Phat, you really don't try. I and others point to the evidence while you NEVER bring either evidence or reasoned argument to support your assertions.
Apparently I never will because I never can. My arguments must be unevidenced and unreasonable, but I would then ask any of you directly why the concept of God (Through Jesus Christ....yes, the Christian One) is unreasonable. WE all know it isn't objective nor evidence-based, though many believers would argue that they became convinced by "evidence" in the way of experience.
jar writes:
Throw God Away.
In my mind, a search for validating a belief does not involve the critically thinking step of attempting to falsify the search.
jar writes:
You claim to have actually met god and to know god yet every other believer in every other religion can and does make the same claim. What factors might make your claim more valid than that of a Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, or Satanist?
Of that list, only the Jew is usually included with the Christians. Anybody can "make up" a Higher Power. In AA, they even claim that your higher power can be anything you want it to be. So let us look for differences among the human categories within this list.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 8:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 11:21 AM Phat has replied
 Message 94 by nwr, posted 12-22-2021 11:34 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 110 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 4:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 137 (890040)
12-22-2021 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by dwise1
12-22-2021 10:30 AM


Re: About characters in books....
LOL.
They called Jesus crazy too, although He even outranks Augustine!
jar writes:
Christianity in fact is about the most inconsistent of ALL the major religions when it comes to descriptions of the God they claim to worship.
I'd have to think about that...
So dwise1, why is the concept of Jesus as God (Given that at least One God *should* exist) so unreasonable.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by dwise1, posted 12-22-2021 10:30 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by dwise1, posted 12-22-2021 12:00 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 137 (890043)
12-22-2021 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
12-22-2021 11:21 AM


Re: About characters in books....
jar writes:
You really are crazy; Jews KNOW that God has no son. Period. Full stop.
Do you ever think about what you post?
Messianic Jews would disagree. And based on what I've read, Jews don't presume to *know* what G-d does and does not have. They rejected Jesus as Messiah, not as possible "Son". He was one of them.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 11:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 11:48 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 137 (890061)
12-23-2021 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
12-23-2021 11:19 AM


Re: About characters in books....
ringo writes:
You're trying to convince yourself, not anybody else.
Oh I'm convinced! I am unafraid to question God, but I never have doubts. It is you guys who keep trying to introduce doubts into my thought process.
Everything in the world that we live in centers around Jesus Christ. I'm not talking about religion, either. You will of course ask me for a reasoned argument.
How about
1 Peter 2:4-8 writes:
As you come to him, the living Stone-rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him- 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
"The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,"
8 and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."
They stumble because they disobey the message which is also what they were destined for.
See? This scripture not only mentions Jesus as the chief cornerstone (and Capstone which the builders rejected, preferring the eye of Baal.....ref dollar bill) but it emphasizes the message. I realize that you have been right all along regarding my need to listen to Jesus. I am simply challenging you in regards to doing the same rather than throwing away God's Son simply to be humanist imitations of the Creator. In that regard, you are building on human logic, reason, and perceived reality and ignoring the Creator....but I suppose you could argue that following the message will prevent your damnation. I never liked the idea of a God Who sends people to hell. For the record, I believe that if hell exists, the only way we would end up there is by us rejecting the message. In essence, we send ourselves there. You will likely argue that any "God" worth their salt would *not create attractive nuisances nor allow *anyone* to fail.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 12-23-2021 11:19 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 3:41 PM Phat has replied
 Message 106 by jar, posted 12-23-2021 3:41 PM Phat has replied
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 12-24-2021 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 137 (890064)
12-23-2021 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by AZPaul3
12-23-2021 3:41 PM


Re: About characters in books....
jar writes:
no one here is advocating humanist behavior to gain salvation or avoid damnation but rather simply because it is the only method that has been shown to work.
The jury is still out on whether or not it will ultimately work. I'll stick with my beliefs, thank you.
Tangle writes:
Your version of jesus is a charlatan.
You are not the first nor likely the last human who, wise in their own eyes, persecutes Jesus.
By far the most dangerous poster here though is jar. He preaches a gospel not found elsewhere. Most of you won't find out until later...hopefully not too late.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 3:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 4:22 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 109 by jar, posted 12-23-2021 4:22 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 112 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-23-2021 6:17 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 12-24-2021 11:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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