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Author | Topic: Should we teach both evolution and religion in school? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
kleinman writes: I have examined some of your links and see that you do seem to have a disciplined counter-argument which few people here take seriously. Im curious as to why. I am also curious as to why nobody here at EvC takes you seriously. And why do they call you a "creationist"? I found you on the internet. You dont look wacky to me. Alan Kleinman Of course, I accept evolution. I have to deal with the consequence of it on a regular basis in my medical practice (that is drug-resistant infection). What I don't accept is this mathematically irrational notion that reptiles can evolve into birds and fish can evolve into mammals. A good starting point to put this right is to require biology students to master introductory probability theory in their dumbbell math courses so that they might have some understanding of stochastic processes such as DNA evolution. What that means is that the faculty of biology departments have to understand the subject and clearly, in general, they don't understand that subject.This is you, is it not? Also did you see the link that AZPaul threw at dad and which I brought out? It had one basic question related to your field of study which I thought to be interesting.
5. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics. Bacteria colonies can only build up a resistance to antibiotics through evolution. It is important to note that in every colony of bacteria, there are a tiny few individuals which are naturally resistant to certain antibiotics. This is because of the random nature of mutations. When an antibiotic is applied, the initial inoculation will kill most bacteria, leaving behind only those few cells which happen to have the mutations necessary to resist the antibiotics. In subsequent generations, the resistant bacteria reproduce, forming a new colony where every member is resistant to the antibiotic. This is natural selection in action. The antibiotic is "selecting" for organisms which are resistant, and killing any that are not. Comments?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Kleinman writes: I guess i'm at a loss here. If we throw out the traditional ToE, what will we replace it with? A NEW ToE? Creationism? Intelligent Design? What are your conclusions so far? The fossil record does not show proof of the theory of evolution, it gives proof counter to that theory. The genetic record also contradicts the theory of evolution, that is if you understand how to do the mathematics of DNA evolution correctly.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Message 143
We do need amusement, but lets respect each other enough to keep our verbal jabs playful rather than caustic.
Forum Guidelines The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I recently read a good article that I wanted to share. There is a Spirituality to Mathematics That Most People Do Not Understand
Several thoughts jumped out at me (Phat) from this article. All thoughts are by the author of the article: Sunil Singh Singh writes:
While on his deathbed in 1920, Ramanujan wrote a letter to his mentor, English mathematician GH Hardy outlining several new mathematical functions never before heard of. In his own words While asleep, I had an unusual experience. There was a red screen formed by flowing blood, as it were. I was observing it. Suddenly a hand began to write on the screen. I became all attention. That hand wrote a number of elliptic integrals. They stuck to my mind. As soon as I woke up, I committed them to writing. In the last 90 years, nobody understood what his theorem was, but they knew it was something tremendous. Only in 2010 did they find out that this theorem describes various behaviors of black holes. Ninety years ago, no one was talking about black holes, the term did not even exist, but Ramanujan made a mathematical impression for it sitting on his deathbed and he said ‘my Devi’ gave it to me. When Ramanujan says, ‘Devi gave it to me’, for him Devi is the doorway. Below is an excerpt of an article I found on Quora about him:Singh writes: Thus, "In The Beginning...Math or "In The Beginning...Chemicals" makes less sense to me than "In The Beginning...God."
Devi is God. Ramanujan firmly believed that he was only communicating the ideas of God. Judging by how far ahead he was in the field of mathematics, especially with his atypical, rural upbringing, the conclusion of him being a conduit to a higher power cannot be ruled out. Both Krumholtz and Ramanujan overcame initial hardships with the environments for mathematics. While nobody would ever accuse an actor with someone like Ramanujan, they both were grasping for a spiritual terminus for mathematics. Singh writes: Personally, I am not a religious person(more mathematically spiritual), but humanizing the life of Pascal is symbolic of humanizing mathematics in general. Food for thought. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Any truth claim made in the forum---especially in the science forums...needs reasonable evidence. Belief cannot enter the picture in a science forum.
Dear Dad: Basically what you are doing is this:Premise: God exists. Premise: The Bible is Gods revealed truth to humanity. Conclusion: The book says there was a flood. Therefore there was a flood. Dads basic defense: None of you were around in those times and can thus not invalidate anything that my belief says. But again...this is a science forum. Assertions and beliefs cannot be used as an argument here."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
kleinman writes: Im watching to see if you drag us off topic. Correct me if im wrong, but you assert that the "science" that is taught is dogmatic, correct? Biology students are being taught dogma, not science.Im assuming that this has to do with your pet phrase: "Fish-to-mammels- aficionados". OK so lets examine what dogma is defined as:
American Heritage Dictionary writes: A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a religion.n. A principle or statement of ideas, or a group of such principles or statements, especially when considered to be authoritative or accepted uncritically. n. A settled opinion; a principle, maxim, or tenet held as being firmly established. So without derailing this topic, which admins wont allow...summarize your point. It seems to me that your point is that evolution itself is being incorrectly taught. Which is darn near off topic. It seems to be a view unique to you and a few others."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Kleinman writes: Evidently you claim that it is. I see no major problem with the school system in regards to their teaching of biological,sociological,anthropological and mathematical concepts. The topic was more focused on what brand of sacred studies or religious studies should be added to the curriculum.
So this topic is only about teaching 19th century concepts about evolution?Kleinman writes: You really like to push that point that *we* all are mathematically incompetent, don't you? The facts which I see are that Don't you think that biology students should be taught how bacteria evolve resistance to drugs and why cancer treatments fail? Or do you think that biology students only need to be indoctrinated with the notion that fish are their distant relatives? I think this upsets you because you are one of those mathematically incompetent fish-to-mammals aficionados.1) Your view is a minority view pushed by extremists. I see that students are taught quite well in our system. And by the way, how did *you* learn your math and how did *you* learn about drug resistance and better cancer treatments? My basic gripe with you is that you are taking this topic in directions it need not go. Kleinman writes: OK lets assume that they knew what you know. For the bloody sake of argument. What now will happen in the field of study? To me, all that I see is a bunch of students who think like you do. And i'm not sure that would be any better for the teaching profession than what they currently have. OK. We are done with your rabbit trail. Don't rehash your arguments again. This topic *will* remain on course. I've talked to many biologists and biology students over the years and not one could explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski evolutionary experiments."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZAntitheist writes: This statement is wrong on so many levels. Coming from you I almost expect it, however. There may come a time when your statement can be objectively verified or disproven but no such evidence overwhelmingly exists at this point in time. You are poisoning the peanut gallery with your propoganda. Religion is the bane of this species. It is a belief in ghosts, gods, and hobgoblins that don’t exist. The major problem with religion is its adherents resort to bloody violence at the least provocation. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
First of all its a lie that the implication that all ir most priests or pastors are harmful.
Second of all it is far from conclusive that God is a myth...as you will someday rediscover. Third of all censoring freedom of ideas is manipulative and authoritarian! Let people have the access and freedom to decide for themselves."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: So with most all of you, objective evidence is required before it matters. Got it. If there is NO evidence of any supernatural interaction with anything material, it simply doesn't matter whether it exists or is a figment of the imagination. Edited by Phat, : Spelling"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We may have chosen incorrectly. Only after we all die may we ever know. The difference between our certainty that our God is real vs all of the other choices is that we believe that truth is not relative nor are all God choices dynamically equivalent. The idea that truth is relative we reject. The idea that Zeus or Odin is as likely as Jesus we also reject.
Look, you know my human foibles and bad traits. I need not explain why on earth God might choose me but suffice it to say its not my good works thatvcount."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
percy writes: well we do have an antichrist. In my mind anti means opposite rathar than "no". It can also mean contrary to the anointing or contrary to the anointed One. If "no religion" is a religion then try telling the guy with "no hair" that he has hair, or the guy with "no car" that he has a car. I wonder, is "no God" a god? If I say there's "no Jesus," does that mean there's a Jesus?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
percy writes: its all about belief rather than objective facts. Evidently objectivity would have eliminated the need for belief. Speculation behind the reasoning for belief rather than objective facts. Centers on the opportunity for free will. Hawkings genius notwithstanding, the need is a free willed opinion. Stephen Hawking said, "The laws of physics can explain the universe without the need for a creator." What now?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What I'm still trying to figure out is how you managed to turn the null hypothesis into the default method.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Perhaps he has been misled.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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