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Author | Topic: Should we teach both evolution and religion in school? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Any student of history knows the vile bloody story of religion. Religious apologists try to justify the cruelty that religion has done to this species by some appeal to the personal comfort felt by some zombies that have already had their brains eaten by the priests.
The millions of humans whose lives were horrifically, painfully, cut short by the evil that is religion would disagree with you. The poison is already loose. Has been for millennia. The task now is to stop it. The peanut gallery need to know the reality. Religion is ethically, morally, intellectually evil and needs to die.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
First of all its a lie that the implication that all ir most priests or pastors are harmful.
Second of all it is far from conclusive that God is a myth...as you will someday rediscover. Third of all censoring freedom of ideas is manipulative and authoritarian! Let people have the access and freedom to decide for themselves."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
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Second of all it is far from conclusive that God is a myth...as you will someday rediscover. And yet in the whole fucking history of this planet with billions of people, not one single person has every presented even one single fucking shred of evidence for your or any other gods. They are the imaginary delusions of stupid, stupid fucking idiots!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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kjsimons Member Posts: 821 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Third of all censoring freedom of ideas is manipulative and authoritarian! Fortunately, no one here is even trying to censor freedom of ideas. The apologists, Carny Barkers and TV Evangelists are allowed to spout their silly spiel; churches are allowed to open their doors and pass the plates; religion is given special tax and zoning status and exempt from behaving like model citizenry. It's allowed to cause traffic jams and require police to manage traffic to pack and empty the pews. Yet unfortunately there is still reality. There is overwhelming evidence that the God marketed by much of Christianity is absolutely totally irrelevant, ineffective, and has no connection with the creations or reality itself. It may be like the God of Genesis 1, a creator that simply is apart and aloof with no interaction with what is created but overwhelming evidence that something like the God of Genesis 2&3 simply doesn't exist. If there is NO evidence of any supernatural interaction with anything material, it simply doesn't matter whether it exists or is a figment of the imagination.My Website: My Website
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: So with most all of you, objective evidence is required before it matters. Got it. If there is NO evidence of any supernatural interaction with anything material, it simply doesn't matter whether it exists or is a figment of the imagination. Edited by Phat, : Spelling"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: So with most all of. You, objective evidence is required before it matters. Got it. Phat, if you claim to have hit the target you really need to show the holes. It's fine to believe that you are a marksman or were abducted by UFO's or that there is a troll under the bridge. The problem is when you confuse and conflate belief with knowledge. It's not really that difficult and we've been down that garden path many times. It really doesn't matter whether the troll really lives under the bridge if no one has ever seen the troll under the bridge and there is no scat to show that the troll was once there. That's the way reality works. To claim you are a marksman you have to provide and get certified the holes in the paper.My Website: My Website
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
How many priests or pastors have to be thieves or child molesters before YOU begin to wonder about their "communion" with God?
First of all its a lie that the implication that all ir most priests or pastors are harmful. Phat writes:
On the contrary, you have reached the conclusion yourself that Zeus is a myth. Many of us reject your God for the same reasons that you reject Zeus. That seems pretty darn close to conclusive.
Second of all it is far from conclusive that God is a myth... Phat writes:
Well, YOU guys are the ones who advocate censoring every other religion but your own. Do you advocate Muslim prayers in school? Do you invite Zoroastrians to preach in your church? Third of all censoring freedom of ideas is manipulative and authoritarian!"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
ringo writes: Do you invite Zoroastrians to preach in your church? They can but only in the basement with the lights off.My Website: My Website
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
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phat writes: jar writes: So with most all of you, objective evidence is required before it matters. Got it. If there is NO evidence of any supernatural interaction with anything material, it simply doesn't matter whether it exists or is a figment of the imagination. I bet you don't "Got it".What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
We may have chosen incorrectly. Only after we all die may we ever know. The difference between our certainty that our God is real vs all of the other choices is that we believe that truth is not relative nor are all God choices dynamically equivalent. The idea that truth is relative we reject. The idea that Zeus or Odin is as likely as Jesus we also reject.
Look, you know my human foibles and bad traits. I need not explain why on earth God might choose me but suffice it to say its not my good works thatvcount."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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EWolf Member (Idle past 252 days) Posts: 18 From: Lehigh Acres, Fl Joined: |
Hello Paulk,
Thank you for your replay. I hope you will find the following answers helpful for your quotes below.
I'm speaking of truth in its purity, not sectarian dogma. Does one have to force his religion in order to act it? Have I not previously said that all decisions and actions are based on ones religion whatsoever it may be, thus making it impossible to act apart from it? Even the person that claims to have no religion lives by his religion of "no religion."
Does the attainment and support of scientific knowledge that supports Biblical truth disqualify the scientist that acquired it to the point that he should be counted as a quack? Should the knowledge gained be counted as sectarian dogma?
Does truth fear falsehood or is it the other way around? Truth has no problem when presented beside the falsehood that it exposes.
Would you please inform me of a scientific or a mathematical law that supports evolution? It only takes one law to disprove it. As for which is the truthful and which is the deceiving side, whether that which promotes evolution as science or that which supports the Bible, are we not more than sufficiently equipped to discern? We travel life's journey only once.
Although true that mishandling of Biblical truth abounds, does that excuse us to despise that which is genuine? That would only make us vulnerable to be drawn deeper into error. Shouldn't we beware of the possibility that scientific knowledge and its authority may also be corrupted to be used as a weapon to promote Godless tyranny?
OK. Don't we both agree that sin is the cause of the chaos I stated above? But what other than Biblical truth should we depend on for controlling sin? Please?
The first amendment protects the free exercise of good religion based on good conscience against governmentally imposed dogma that would compromise it. Please note the terms, "free exercise." Should the free exercise of good action based on good conscience be prohibited? But why do we have unbiblical humanistic dogma forced on us especially in our schools by our government that violates the first amendment right to abide by the Biblical mandate? Should we be led to believe that the Biblical mandate is bad so that unbiblical behavior may appear and thus promoted as good?ELD
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EWolf Member (Idle past 252 days) Posts: 18 From: Lehigh Acres, Fl Joined: |
Hello Tangle,
Have you considered these statements made by Isaac Newton and Johann Kepler? Newton?"I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily." “This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.” Johann Kepler said he was “thinking God’s thoughts after Him.” when once asked what he was doing in his scientific work. Scientific and Biblical truth go hand in hand. Where does any truth including that which is scientific come from but from God? Without conscience governed by Biblical truth, what would stop a scientist from performing destructive experiments on live humans?ELD
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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Without conscience governed by Biblical truth, what would stop a scientist from performing destructive experiments on live humans? Oh that one's easy. It's called common human decency. For example, I'm an atheist and I wouldn't dream of inflicting cruelty on a fellow human being. In contrast, we have numerous examples of Protestants and Catholics burning each other alive throughout the centuries. You get good humans and vile humans across the world, regardless of the flavour of their religious beliefs or lack of them. To believe your particular sect has cornered the market in decency and morality is palpable bollocks.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: So you absolutely do not want creationism taught in science classes. Which is odd, given all the references to creationism in your post. Creationism is a sectarian dogma - one that is rejected by many Christians. Indeed you seem to be referring to Young Earth Creationism which is rejected by even more Christians.
quote: I don’t think so but I certainly got the impression that you did. How else would a ban on teaching creationism in science classes prevent you from following your religion?
quote: I’ll note that “no religion” is obviously not a religion.More importantly you never connected the original assertion to any point. quote: I’m not aware of any significant scientific knowledge that supports creationism. I am aware of a vast collection of apologetics for sectarian dogma - apologetics that are often less than honest. (But then religious apologetics are often less than fully honest).
quote: Regardless of the question of “fear” there is the point that it is much quicker and easier to make a false assertion than it is to refute it. Classroom time is limited. Using it to promote the views of a sect - and then taking time to refute those claims - would seem a poor use of it. The more so since all sects would claim the right to have their views presented - imagine having to discuss the Book of Mormon when dealing with pre-Colombian history!
quote: You really don’t know much about science, do you? Though I put to you the Law of Faunal Succession as relevant.
quote: I certainly am. Indeed Creationism is not “supporting the Bible” - at best they are supporting a dubious view of the Bible which often results in distorting and misrepresenting Scripture.
quote: I would count Creationism as mishandling whatever truth there is in the Bible. Indeed the idea that the truth is to be found by taking myths literally seems a quite clear example.
quote: The mere existence of a possibility is hardly a counter-balance to a known threat. The people who want theocratic tyranny are here and they are active. Indeed the whole movement to restore prayer in schools is a part of it.
quote: I hardly think that forcing your religion on children is a means of ‘controlling sin”. And as for chaos wouldn’t the Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921 be a clear example? Did prayer in school stop that?
quote: That is a very selective reading of the First Amendment. You omit the fact that it forbids government support for religion. Teachers - as government employees - therefore cannot use their position to advance their religion. Eg by wasting time in science class teaching sectarian dogmas like creationism instead of science. If that is the “free exercise” you have in mind then it is quite obvious that it is forbidden - and rightly so. I also note that free exercise is not a carte blanche. Religious justification only goes so far when it comes to actions,
quote: First science belongs in science classes. Your sectarian dogma does not. Second, the First Amendment does not grant the right to use government positions to promote your religion - and I very much doubt you would be happy if a teacher used their position to promote Islam or Hinduism. Or even if a teacher made Christian arguments against creationism in a science class.
quote: I would not count creationism as good religion. If the “right” claimed would only be granted to Creationists and not to the followers of other religions (as I am sure is intended) the claim is not made in good conscience. “Unbiblical behaviour” - if that means teaching the curriculum honestly and professionally - seems obviously good in comparison.
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