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Author Topic:   The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 131 of 244 (888437)
09-18-2021 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by PaulK
09-18-2021 6:46 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
You’re just repeating your assumptions without explaining again.
You're ignoring some of what I said and not addressing it, just claiming I'm wrong. If changing language doesn’t change reality then surely the sensible belief is that language is a tool that we use to describe reality rather than something which governs it.
quote:
So again, why should the existence of a mind make a difference? There doesn’t seem to be any reason to think so other than your assumptions about how logic works. But there’s no good reason to believe this either.
When two premise are true, and a conclusions follows from them deductively, the conclusion must be true, necessarily. This is a law of logic. No facts can contradict it. Neither can informal fallacies prove it wrong, for informal fallacies speak of content, not deduction.
quote:
If the truths of logic are necessary truths then there is no need for logic to “govern” anything. Reality must conform to logic because it is literally impossible for it not to. And when we consider the fact that logical truths are tautologous it is easy to see how they are necessarily true.
Reality must conform to logic, and yet is not limited by logic?
That which is not limited by something is not forced to conform it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 6:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:04 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 134 of 244 (888440)
09-18-2021 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:04 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
It isn’t meaningfully limited by logic for the reasons you give above, I.e it is not logic that makes the conclusion true - it is the truth of the premises that does that.
You still have to prove that my premises are false.
quote:
It isn’t meaningfully limited by logic for the reasons you give above, I.e it is not logic that makes the conclusion true - it is the truth of the premises that does that.
But it is limited by logic. Therefore, a non-physical reality limits the universe. Logic is not a physical thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:17 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 135 of 244 (888441)
09-18-2021 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:00 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
That is just pointless nitpicking. You assert that the existence of minds somehow makes the universe obey the laws of logic. But you can’t give any reason to think that’s true.
No, I said that, the universe cannot obey the laws of meaning and logic without the existence of a mind.
quote:
That is obviously incorrect. “Therefore there is a very real problem here” would be the correct conclusion. After all, you claim that only things “governed by the rules of logic and meaning” make sense.
God does not have to obey the laws of logic. Therefore this does not apply to Him.
Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:00 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:23 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 138 of 244 (888444)
09-18-2021 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Tangle
09-18-2021 2:26 AM


quote:
Is there a reason that you think that the universe is under any obligation to make sense to us?
The universe makes more sense to us today than it did 500 years ago. Does this mean that it violated the laws of meaning and logic more then than now? Do we have to understand everything about the universe for it to exist?
The universe must make sense to a mind which is able to understand it. But for this to be true, that mind must exist. For if the universe must make sense to a mind which is able to understand it, it must make sense according to meaning and logic, which, it cannot, if there is no mind to whom it must make sense.
quote:
The universe had no minds in it at all until we came along a few hundred thousand years ago but it seemed to get along just fine.
Is qualia a part of the physical universe? If the universe is purely physical, what are minds?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2021 2:26 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 2:37 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 139 of 244 (888445)
09-18-2021 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:17 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Simply asserting that I’m wrong is not much of an argument. I repeat my assertion that logic doesn’t impose any limits at all. The truth of the premises - which will involve physical reality to at least the same extent the conclusion does - is what makes the conclusion true,
If it is the truth of the premise that makes the conclusion true, then the universe must conform to what our symbolic manipulation tells us; and if this is the case, then what it tells us actually limits the universe. Otherwise, our logic merely reflects the universe. But a mere reflection is not that to which what it reflects conforms. If therefore, the universe does not conform to it, then it is able to violate it.
quote:
Simply asserting that I’m wrong is not much of an argument. I repeat my assertion that logic doesn’t impose any limits at all. The truth of the premises - which will involve physical reality to at least the same extent the conclusion does - is what makes the conclusion true,
That which conforms by necessity to a thing is limited by it. Otherwise it need not conform to it. For without a limit is no force of obligation.
Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:17 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:47 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 140 of 244 (888446)
09-18-2021 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:23 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
So God doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s fine, it just makes your argument even more nonsensical. But that is hardly my problem.
Why shouldn't God make sense? Just because God does not have to obey the laws of logic doesn't mean He makes no sense at all, but we cannot fully understand Him, because we cannot conceive of things which violate logic. We cannot fully conceive of Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:23 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:52 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 142 of 244 (888448)
09-18-2021 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:47 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Obviously false. Since logical truths are tautologous, our symbolic manipulations control nothing, they only let us work out what is independently true. So logic imposes no limitations at all. The conclusion is true regardless of logic.
Equally this shows that the presence of an observer is unnecessary. A tautology will be true regardless of the presence of a mind to identify it as being true,
Why must they be true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:47 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:54 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 145 of 244 (888451)
09-18-2021 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:54 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Because the conclusion is contained in the premises. Asserting the truth of the premises is asserting the truth of the conclusion. Logic only helps us see truths that are already there. As I said, it’s a mental tool,
True or false: The universe conforms to what our logic tells us when the arguments are sound?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 09-18-2021 8:15 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 148 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 8:18 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 146 of 244 (888452)
09-18-2021 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by PaulK
09-18-2021 7:54 AM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Because the conclusion is contained in the premises. Asserting the truth of the premises is asserting the truth of the conclusion. Logic only helps us see truths that are already there. As I said, it’s a mental tool,
But why does the universe have to be such that our logic, which does not allow everything, proves what it true about the universe, the universe being limited, even as the rules of logic demonstrate this limit?
There is a correlation between the limits of the universe and the limits of what logic permits.
Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 7:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2021 8:20 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 152 of 244 (888458)
09-18-2021 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Percy
09-18-2021 9:41 AM


Re: Paul Steinhardt on Dark Energy.
quote:
There is no evidence of any cause of virtual particles or of the time of nuclear decay or of what state an entangled particle will take up once observed.
Why are you offering useless evidence-free declarations of what you wish were true? It appears that you claim everything has a cause simply because you think it supports other things you believe true without evidence, so you simple declare, over and over again without support or rationale, that everything has a cause.
Everything does not have a cause, so far as we can tell.
--Percy
Then what is stopping the universe from suddenly changing into an elephant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 9:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 10:16 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 5:08 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 153 of 244 (888459)
09-18-2021 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Christian7
09-18-2021 10:06 AM


Re: Paul Steinhardt on Dark Energy.
quote:
There is no evidence of any cause of virtual particles or of the time of nuclear decay or of what state an entangled particle will take up once observed.
Why are you offering useless evidence-free declarations of what you wish were true? It appears that you claim everything has a cause simply because you think it supports other things you believe true without evidence, so you simple declare, over and over again without support or rationale, that everything has a cause.
Everything does not have a cause, so far as we can tell.
--Percy
Obviously all you believe in is space, time, matter and energy, all physical, that's it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2021 10:06 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 155 of 244 (888461)
09-18-2021 10:21 AM


If everything is made of physical energy, then there should be no consciousness. Is a hand a hand because at some level it is a hand, or because the constituting elements behave together as a hand. The whole is not more than the sum of its parts, rather, its behavior emerges from the contribution of its parts. And since the parts of a brain are physical, there can be no mental reality in a purely materialistic universe.

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 5:12 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 156 of 244 (888462)
09-18-2021 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Percy
09-18-2021 10:17 AM


quote:
Your "this is all a dream" argument would invalidate your own position and says you don't believe that, so why would you say it?
You're obviously avoiding the topic. Stile explained that we can see natural laws being followed everywhere we look, and his phrasing was tentative, so why would you ask, "How do you know the laws of physics never changed?" when he very carefully explained our knowledge is consistent with observation yet still tentative.
You're also responding to detailed arguments with single sentences that tend toward the cryptic. Please stop approaching the discussion this way and participate in good faith. There are people here interested in discussing the topic, but you seem to be trying your best to stymie them. Will you discuss in good faith or just prove you're still the same messed up kid inside?
I did not avoid the topic, but used an argument to respond to an argument. I dealt with the topic.
If our knowledge that the laws of physics never changed is tentative, and all scientific knowledge is tentative, and nothing is proven, how can you make any claim about the universe, contrary to my "assertions", and be certain that you are right, and that I am wrong? And if you cannot be certain that you are right, and that I am wrong, but are merely confident, there should be doubt in your mind concerning what you affirm. And if there is no doubt in your mind concerning what you affirm, then you are trusting in propositions, having faith in those propositions, seeing you know that the truth cannot be otherwise, as there is no proof that it is not. And this is evident, because all scientific knowledge is tentative, and can therefore be revised, even rejected, by future scientific findings.
I have no idea what you mean by what you are saying. I did nothing to thwart discussion of the topic at hand. I engaged in discussion with everyone that responded to my posts as far as I was able to, and I responded to their arguments with arguments and explanations. If I responded with a single sentence, it is because I was getting tired, as it was late last night when I was on the forum. Perhaps I should not be debating when I am tired.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 10:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 09-18-2021 12:06 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 8:53 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 172 of 244 (888478)
09-18-2021 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Percy
09-18-2021 2:37 PM


quote:
You mean like our mind experiencing the senses or emotions? For anyone who understands that these are just synapses firing a certain way, sure, it's part of the physical universe. For anyone to whom aspects of the mind are transcendental or spiritual, maybe not, but their arguments would suffer from a lack of evidence.
But where are you going with this? As near as I can figure out this started with you arguing that everything must have a cause, and now you're mostly talking nonsense.
--Percy
The experience of awareness, thought, emotions, senses, etc, are not physical in nature. Without a mind, according to your claim, the universe would be going on. But it would be as though there were nothing, for there would be no sight of it, nor hearing of it, nor feeling of it, nor smelling of it, nor perceiving it in any fashion, though there might be many cameras throughout the universe. What you think your mind is after death, that is what your physical brain should produce. For, if a theory could be formed that explained the universe in terms of quantum physics, with a single equation, concerning the physical forces of nature and the movement of particles, (I do not know exactly how the math describe things. I speak in some ignorance), it would not demonstrate that anything consciousness could be formed. It would demonstrate that the most sophisticated object in the universe is nothing but changing states and positions of particles. The happens space, which, as far as I know, is not sentient, nor has any property leading to sentience. Perhaps more would be explained, but only what pertains to space and matter.
You cannot deny that you have a mind, and that it sees colors, which cameras do not, and which androids do not. Though cameras receive light, they do not see anything. But we see, and our sight is not physical. For not in bounds alone are our perceptual fields separated, but they are completely unjoinable in any fashion. Only through the physical medium can our minds interact. Even twins who are joined together have separate visual fields. If one eye belongs to one, they see through that eye, if the other other eye belongs to the other, they see through that eye. But neither sees through the other one's eye, for their perceptual fields are not simply isolated in bounds alone, but in much more than that. Cameras do not have this property, for their lenses and rams are isolated merely in bounds.
I'll return to the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 2:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by AZPaul3, posted 09-18-2021 7:13 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 09-19-2021 12:37 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 173 of 244 (888479)
09-18-2021 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Percy
09-18-2021 1:22 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
quote:
Are you here for constructive discussion or just trying to be a frustrating dick? How much have you really changed from that messed up kid? I'm beginning to think your behavior here is just an adult incarnation of your younger self.
I'm making an argument.
quote:
The error bars on what will happen if you jump off a tall building are very small. If you really believe nothing is certain, give it a try.
You yourself said that nothing is certain. The Law of Gravity, The Theory of Gravity, (I guess it's not a law), is not certain, though we all know that we are subject to it, according to the science as you've explained it. It would seem then, that nothing was discovered about gravity which we can be sure of, except the common observation that no one can fly without a machine, which I am sure that everyone understood for the most part already.
quote:
Tentativity is not an excuse for ignoring the degree of confidence we have in much of our knowledge. Our confidence in our knowledge of thermodynamics is extremely high, in the nature of dark energy extremely low. If you want to bet against some dark energy theory then feel free, but if you want to argue against established science in general where we have mountains of conclusive evidence and high confidence, then you're just being a dick who's trying to avoid addressing what people actually say.
Confidence and certainty are not the same thing. If you are merely confident you will not go to Hell for refusing to believe the gospel, but not certain, then rejecting the gospel is not wise. If you are merely confident that you will not suffocate in space, but not certain, then going into space with a faulty astronaut suit is not wise. You must admit, then, that if scientists are not certain, they are taking a risk. And taking risks with your soul is not wise.
Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 09-18-2021 1:22 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 09-19-2021 1:20 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
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