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Author | Topic: The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: I’ve given good reasons to think that they are false. You haven’t given a good reason to think that they are true.
quote: Simply asserting that I’m wrong is not much of an argument. I repeat my assertion that logic doesn’t impose any limits at all. The truth of the premises - which will involve physical reality to at least the same extent the conclusion does - is what makes the conclusion true,
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: I don’t think that a different phrasing of essentially the same statement is a very important issue. But what is important is that you provide some reason to think that your assertion is true - because it seems to be obviously false.
quote: So God doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s fine, it just makes your argument even more nonsensical. But that is hardly my problem.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 566 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: The universe must make sense to a mind which is able to understand it. But for this to be true, that mind must exist. For if the universe must make sense to a mind which is able to understand it, it must make sense according to meaning and logic, which, it cannot, if there is no mind to whom it must make sense.
quote: Is qualia a part of the physical universe? If the universe is purely physical, what are minds?
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 566 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: If it is the truth of the premise that makes the conclusion true, then the universe must conform to what our symbolic manipulation tells us; and if this is the case, then what it tells us actually limits the universe. Otherwise, our logic merely reflects the universe. But a mere reflection is not that to which what it reflects conforms. If therefore, the universe does not conform to it, then it is able to violate it.
quote: That which conforms by necessity to a thing is limited by it. Otherwise it need not conform to it. For without a limit is no force of obligation. Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 566 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: Why shouldn't God make sense? Just because God does not have to obey the laws of logic doesn't mean He makes no sense at all, but we cannot fully understand Him, because we cannot conceive of things which violate logic. We cannot fully conceive of Him.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: Obviously false. Since logical truths are tautologous, our symbolic manipulations control nothing, they only let us work out what is independently true. So logic imposes no limitations at all. The conclusion is true regardless of logic. Equally this shows that the presence of an observer is unnecessary. A tautology will be true regardless of the presence of a mind to identify it as being true,
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 566 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: Why must they be true?
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: I didn’t say that God didn’t make sense - I just pointed out that was what you were claiming.
quote: So you are now claiming that things that “violate the laws of meaning and logic” can make sense. OK. Since you now assert that your syllogism is unsound you’d better stop using it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: Because the conclusion is contained in the premises. Asserting the truth of the premises is asserting the truth of the conclusion. Logic only helps us see truths that are already there. As I said, it’s a mental tool,
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 566 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: True or false: The universe conforms to what our logic tells us when the arguments are sound?
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 566 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: But why does the universe have to be such that our logic, which does not allow everything, proves what it true about the universe, the universe being limited, even as the rules of logic demonstrate this limit? There is a correlation between the limits of the universe and the limits of what logic permits. Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 157 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Guido writes: True or false: The universe conforms to what our logic tells us when the arguments are sound? Often false. Often true. More often unknown.My Website: My Website
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: I’ll work harder at getting you to understand rather than leave you caught in the traps of your assumptions. True or false: if something is true, it’s true.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: Because what is true, is true. Is that really so hard to understand?
quote: I have yet to see any meaningful limit imposed by logic in the universe.
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Percy Member Posts: 23144 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
Christian7 writes: The virtual particles do that, because something caused them to appear. They did not pop into reality of their own accord. They cannot come into reality of their own accord, without before hand existing. Nothing can act that does not exist. To begin to exist is to act. There is no evidence of any cause of virtual particles or of the time of nuclear decay or of what state an entangled particle will take up once observed. Why are you offering useless evidence-free declarations of what you wish were true? It appears that you claim everything has a cause simply because you think it supports other things you believe true without evidence, so you simple declare, over and over again without support or rationale, that everything has a cause. Everything does not have a cause, so far as we can tell. --Percy
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