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Author | Topic: The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 161 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Percy writes: Christian7 writes:
What's makes you think this? We know of no causal event for the Big Bang, for virtual particles, or for the time when a radioactive atom decays. Our observations of the natural world reveal some phenomena with causes and some without. Nothing can begin without a cause; the beginning of something is not in itself, therefore an outside being or object began it. What is so funny and typical of the Christian Cult of Ignorance is that if they truly believed such nonsense they also make the God they market irrelevant and impossible.My Website: My Website
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 570 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: God has no beginning and no end; therefore your conclusion is false. The universe must have a beginning, because it is animate. If something is animate; it cannot have always been, for change cannot occur eternally in the past, otherwise the present would never come. The universe is limited and governed by non-physical reality, like logic and math. These are not physical; these are mental. Therefore, being mental, they must have predated the universe. In fact, they never had a place in time; they are eternal, not from the present to the future, but in a timeless fashion. Seeing the universe is governed and limited by them, it must have had its origin with them; but since they cannot act, they could not have created them. Therefore, since no inanimate mental object could have produced them, and all animate objects must begin, and eternal mind must have created them, not in time, but as part of time, a thing originating from this timeless, eternal mind. This is not doctrine, but logic, derived from the premises, but likely not against sound doctrine.
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Stile Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Christian7 writes: How do you know the laws of physics are the same as what they were yesterday? By the best way of knowing. Testing and checking.
How do you know the laws of physics never changed? I don't.But we know they've never changed since we've been testing and checking for as far as we can test and check. It depends on what kind of Creator we're talking about. Regardless of whether or not a Creator wants to change the laws of physics... if a Creator with the ability exists, then the possibility of those laws being changed is greater than if no Creator exists that can change the laws of physics.For if no Creator exists that can change the laws of physics... who else could possibly change them? You either have faith in God's word or you have faith in something else. Heh.That's like a child saying "You either give me candy or you don't love me!" Naive and simplistic. Personally, though, I have faith in Love. The world is much more complicated and wonderous than you seem to want it to be.
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jar Member (Idle past 161 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yup.
The Christian Cult of Ignorance loves to wallow in such fantasies.My Website: My Website
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PaulK Member Posts: 18057 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: I don’t think so. In what way does logic meaningfully limit the universe? Consider wave-particle duality. If logic allows that, what won’t it allow ?
quote: That is not logical. Just because something is mental does not mean that it must predate the universe. Not at all. Further, if they are purely mental how can they “govern the universe” ? There seems no obvious connection between the presence of minds and the way the universe behaves. Indeed, since logical truths are necessary truths, how can they be dependent on the existence of minds? That would be a contradiction. So, no this does not make sense. Probably it’s based on a hopelessly confused idea of logic. Well, at least nonsense is better than dishonesty. But neither paints Christianity in a good light at all.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 570 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: You reject logic, and yet make arguments with logic, supposing that truth is according to logic, but denying that the universe is limited by logic, thereby denying that the cosmos is limited by what can possibly be true. Therefore, what you say is this: The universe contradicts truth.
quote: The universe is limited by logic and math, and logic and math are not physical. Therefore, non-physical things can limit physical things. If logic and math are not mental, they are nevertheless non-physical, otherwise they would appear as physical objects, and we no of no object which we call logic and math, but have symbols to represent them, which represent things that exist in our minds. And if they exist in our minds, where did they come from? If they were invented by our minds, then how do they limit the universe? And if the universe is not limited by them, how can we use them to understand it? And if they do exist in our minds, and they came from the universe, then where in the universe did they come from, seeing there is no object in the universe which we call logic and math, or which is contained in logic and math. Therefore, the universe is influenced by non-physical realities. And if these non-physical realities are not mental, then what do we have in our minds, which is not a reference to something physical, and not a mental object, what do we have in our minds that we call logic and math? If our minds are governed by logic and math, then how did our minds arise? For if a mind is brought forth by logic and math, then they are not logic and math. Therefore, a mind does not by necessity depend on logic and math. Therefore, if a mind by necessity does not depend on logic and math, but our own minds are governed by logic and math, where did logic and math come from? Therefore, no non-mental reality contains logic and math; therefore, logic and math exists in a mind, which in one aspect differs from our mind, that it is not governed by logic and math. Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.Edited by Christian7, : No reason given. Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.
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nwr Member Posts: 6490 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: |
You reject logic
PaulK did not reject logic. He rejected the assumptions you are making about logic.
The universe is limited by logic and math
Speaking as a mathematician -- no, it isn't.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 570 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: PaulK clearly questioned whether logic permits the particle wave duality, thus elevating physics above the truth of logic.
quote: Then what's the point of describing the laws of physics with mathematical equations? Can I have three apples, then add another apple, and have seven, without three being added instantly? Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 570 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
If I made an unsound or invalid or non-sensical argument, and you refute it, then I will reject that argument, and use a different one. But if it is sound and logical, and you misunderstood it, or I did not properly communicate it, then I will explain it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18057 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: I did no such thing. I reject your confused ideas about logic.
quote: I deny that logic meaningfully governs the universe. I would also argue that the application of logic does not require any meaningful “limitation”. None of this denies that logic may be usefully applied to the universe.
quote: Repeating your assertion rather than explaining it only confirms my opinion that you lack any understanding.
quote: I did not say that they are not mental. But then language is mental, too is it not? But you don’t say that language limits the universe even though it applies in pretty much the same way as logic and mathematics (indeed it is often stated that mathematics is a language - and one that enables descriptions more useful to physics).
quote: That is the question you were meant to be answering. I grant that it is a very deep question - but it is your assertion.
quote: In much the same way as we use language - and with the very many different languages in the world - and the way that they have changed over time - it seems rather likely that they were “invented” by humans.
quote: Let’s not jump ahead to questionable conclusions until you can defend the premises. So far all you’ve done is misrepresent my position and repeat your assertions - without addressing my questions at all. Until you can address them there is no reason to take your claims seriously - indeed they seem to be obviously false.
quote: Mental tools which we use to help us understand our experiences and - we hope - the reality that underlies them.
quote: Are they? In what way? I mean your thinking is not very logical at all. Indeed you have yet to explain how logic “governs” anything.
quote: It seems to me that the same argument would apply to any mind - which implies that logic and math are more basic than mind and therefore cannot be purely mental entities - if your assumptions are correct. However since you seem unable to even explain what your assumptions mean we certainly cannot grant that they are correct. That would be very bad logic indeed.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18057 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: In fact it seems that you just insist that you are right without explaining - even when explicitly asked to do so. As demonstrated in Message 81
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nwr Member Posts: 6490 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: |
PaulK clearly questioned whether logic permits the particle wave duality
Quantum particles do not need to get permission from logic before they act as they do.
..., thus elevating physics above the truth of logic.
Logic is not about the physical world. It is about our descriptions (including our descriptions of the physical world).
Can I have three apples, then add another apple, and have seven, without three being added instantly?
That's an empirical question, not a mathematical question.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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PaulK Member Posts: 18057 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: In fact I did not. I suggested that logic permits the wave-particle duality and therefore does not impose much control (it indeed any) on the universe. But of course you never addressed that issue.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 570 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
The universe is limited by logic and math, for it does not contradict the rules of logic, nor the rules of math. If it were not limited by logic and math, then it could contradict them. But since it cannot, it is limited by them.
Since it is limited by them, and logic and math are not the physical reality, it is limited by something other than itself, something which is non-physical, seeing they do not appear as physical entities. We understand the universe through logic and math, because the universe operates according to it. If the universe did not operate according to it, we could not understand it through logic and math. For the universe, able to violate logic and math, would not be understood through logic and math, for logic and math would be useless for comprehending it, being violated by it. We do not understand the universe through language, but through what our language signifies. We do not understand through words, but through the meaning of the words. Therefore, since our universe cannot contradict this meaningfulness, it is limited by this as well. It would certainly seem, following from these things, that the universe is limited by a mental reality, seeing that meaning is mental. It is not that meaning is derived from the universe, for then the universe could have things being unmeaningful. Rather, the universe is limited by meaning, itself being meaningful.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 570 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: I never said that the particle/wave duality was a violation of the laws of logic. There are the laws of physics, and there are the laws of logic. Physical laws can be violated, (not that that is a violation of physical laws), because it is not illogical for physical laws to be violated, only for logical laws to be violated.
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