Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 494 of 1864 (887101)
07-10-2021 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Phat
07-10-2021 2:01 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
Explain why 1+1+1=1 makes no sense
The onus is on you and your apologists to explain how it DOES make sense. The reason we use the mathematical analogy is because anybody who can count his own fingers can see that it's obviously false.
Phat writes:
Creator of all seen and unseen? Can you conceive. of such a Being imparting His character into a human?
Of course.
But that has nothing to do with any Trinity. Three and one at the same time is not possible.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 2:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 6:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 496 of 1864 (887104)
07-10-2021 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Phat
07-10-2021 6:35 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
First off, what defines possible?
Possible is clearly defined. You can look it up as easily as anybody.
Phat writes:
Second, can you see a Creator and His human character operating at once as Two(essentially becoming One?)
As I said, that has nothing to do with any Trinity. You can have a cook and a waiter working together in a restaurant. That doesn't make them one person.
Phat writes:
Third, if the Creator of all seen and unseen so wanted, He could become all (pantheism) or infuse many sons and daughters (polytheism) and argue that either scenario is still Monotheism.
Nope. Poly is poly and mono is mono and never the twain shall meet. A creator can't just declare that black is white.
Phat writes:
Im speculating, but I still don't see your logic that 3 and 1 at the same time is impossible. With God ALL things are possible.
The next time a customer's bill comes to $3 and he offers you $1, maybe you'll see the logic.
Phat writes:
With God ALL things are possible.
You're the one who argues against that when you say that God can't be evil.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 6:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 498 of 1864 (887106)
07-10-2021 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by Phat
07-10-2021 9:36 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
The dusty old book explains itself quite well.
Then why do you reject it when it says things you don't want to hear?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 9:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 1:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 500 of 1864 (887109)
07-11-2021 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by Phat
07-11-2021 1:23 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
why must I listen to a character in a book?
Duh! You call yourself a "Christian". Christ is the character in the book.
It's like calling yourself a Marxist and disagreeing with what Marx said.
I keep asking you, if you're going to make up your own character, why do you even call him "Jesus"?
Phat writes:
Seems a bit obsessive to me.
Not nearly as crazy as communing with voices in your head. That's Charles Manson territory.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 1:23 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:41 PM ringo has replied
 Message 502 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 506 of 1864 (887115)
07-11-2021 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by Phat
07-11-2021 3:41 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I keep asking you, if you're going to make up your own character, why do you even call him "Jesus"?
How do you know He isn't?
You expect people to believe there is a real Jesus alive today, and he's the one you made up, not the one in the Bible? Come on. Does that make sense to you at all?
As I keep asking you, if you think the Bible authors got it so wrong, why do you even use the same name for your version? Why don't you call your savior George?
Phat writes:
The other Jesus is the product of human authorship....whats the difference?
For one thing, there are four gospels. If you're going to make up your own religion, you should have three more apostles that support your story.
Edited by ringo, : Spell'ng.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 4:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 508 of 1864 (887117)
07-11-2021 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by Phat
07-11-2021 3:50 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
So if I wrote a story and narrated it to you on Audible, you would essentially be listening to voices in my head(and in my book)
Not at all. Not even close. The voices in your head are not audible. I can not hear them.
Phat writes:
Again I ask you what the difference is.
The difference is the word you hate so much: evidence. There is evidence of the made-up book. There is no evidence that the voices in your head are real.
Phat writes:
What good is it to have a stern commanding Jesus who tells us we must do the same as the rich young ruler...
It has nothing to do with whether you think it's "good" or not. It's about whether He said it or not. If you don't believe He said it, then you have no basis for believing He said He was the Son of God and you have no basis for believing He said He was coming back.
Phat writes:
As for Charlie Manson, he was either certifiably deranged or harboring demons.
So why was he deranged when he heard voices in his head and you're not? Why was he harboring demons and you're not?
Phat writes:
You can't argue my argument borrowing my beliefs to do so when you in fact (as does Tangle) see only characters in a book.
Utter nonsense. Whether or not the character is real has nothing to do with it.
You're trying to hijack the character, whether he was real or not. You could make up your own Long John Silver and claim yours is real and Stevenson's was not. Or you could make up your own Franklin Delano Roosevelt and claim yours is real and Eleanor's was not. You'd be just as crazy in those cases as you are in claiming your Jesus is real and the Biblical one is not.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 3:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 509 of 1864 (887118)
07-11-2021 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Phat
07-11-2021 4:04 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
You don't get that nobody does what they should....
It doesn't matter if nobody does it. The point is that you're claiming Jesus never said what He said.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 4:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 510 of 1864 (887119)
07-11-2021 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by Phat
07-11-2021 4:30 PM


Re: Dusty Old Book and Human Characters
Phat writes:
The dusty old book explains itself quite well.
ringo writes:
Then why do you reject it when it says things you don't want to hear?
back atcha.
Nope. You can't get away with that.
You claim to believe in Jesus. I don't. I don't have any reason to do what a fictional character said. But if you believe He isn't fictional, you do have an obligation to do what He said.
As for your Bible quote, why do you believe Jesus when He said He didn't have a demon? Why do you believe Jesus when He said he honored His Father? Why do you believe Jesus when He said He didn't seek His own glory? Why do you believe Jesus when He said He knew the Father and kept His word?
And yet you don't believe Him when He tells you to do something.
Phat writes:
And you have the gall to suggest that only the message is important and that the messenger is little more than an envelope.
It doesn't take any "gall' to tell the truth. And you know it's true: You don't throw away your bills can keep the envelopes.
Phat writes:
Your excuse has been that you are not a believer.
And it's a pretty damn good excuse. You don't believe in Zoroaster and you don't do has he says. You don't believe in Qutetzalcoatl and you don't do what he says. Why would you?
Phat writes:
Essentially you only use the parts of the message that support Socialism...which you like.
Go ahead and show us the parts that don't support socialism.
Phat writes:
The idea that you don't need to pay taxes to Caesar, perhaps?
What are you talking about? I have always advocated paying taxes.
Phat writes:
The fact that nothing belongs to any of us anyway and is essentially communally shared?
I have never said any such thing.
Phat writes:
The idea that the ravens (and liberal neighbors) will feed you and give you spare change?
That's the Bible's idea.
Phat writes:
Truly we differ.
Well, go to the door and pull your brain out of it's parking place.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 07-11-2021 4:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 513 of 1864 (898971)
10-04-2022 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by candle2
10-04-2022 1:46 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
candle2 writes:
There is no way around this.
There actually is.
Phat and I have been through this before. "The Word" is not a person. The Word is the message (love thy neighbor, etc.) that God has been trying to get through to people since the beginning. Go ahead and look up every instance of the word "word" in John - or in the whole Bible, for that matter. It doesn't refer to a person. It refers to actual words. In some places there are references to Jesus AND the word, indicating that they are two different things.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by candle2, posted 10-04-2022 1:46 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 523 of 1864 (899012)
10-06-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 522 by Phat
10-06-2022 12:24 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
One may as well throw away Alpha Centauri
Easily done. Alpha Centauri has no effect on my life (just like your God). I can totally disregard Alpha Centauri with no problem at all.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by Phat, posted 10-06-2022 12:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by Phat, posted 10-07-2022 3:59 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 526 of 1864 (899026)
10-06-2022 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Dredge
10-06-2022 8:25 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Dredge writes:
The Holy Spirit has certainly "done its job" ... infallibly, in fact, through the Catholic Church.
It has failed to cover up a lot of the child-molesting.
A cynic might even wonder why an infallible Holy Spirit would appoint so many child molesters to lofty positions in the Church.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Dredge, posted 10-06-2022 8:25 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by Dredge, posted 10-07-2022 12:07 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 533 of 1864 (899039)
10-07-2022 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by Dredge
10-07-2022 12:07 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Dredge writes:
The Holy Spirit guarantees to provide infallible interpretations of Scripture through the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
So your loophole is that the scriptures don't forbid child-molesting.
Dredge writes:
The Holy Spirit does not override the free will of any human being nor prevent anyone from choosing to sin ... regardless of their position in the Church.
Then the Holy Spirit's job description should be re-written. Preventing child-molesting by church officials certainly SHOULD be part of its job.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Dredge, posted 10-07-2022 12:07 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by Theodoric, posted 10-07-2022 1:32 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 534 of 1864 (899040)
10-07-2022 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by Phat
10-07-2022 3:59 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
Many positive habits or systems have a positive measurable change on and in my life.
Mine too. But I don't misattribute them to some non-exixtant entity.
Phat writes:
Did I simply freely or willfully choose to implement these small yet significant changes on a day that was specific? Yes. Why was that day specific over any other day?
What difference does that make? If the circumstances were time-sensitive, how can you determine that the timing wasn't coincidental?
Phat writes:
But the changes are beginning to snowball.
If you mean you're getting worse, some here would agree.
Phat writes:
As an example, my average blood sugar reading is 184. That's over a hundred points lower than a month ago.
But your posts are just as crazy as they were a month ago.
Phat writes:
Why is it that I had no power to even lower my blood sugar a point for many years?
Good question. Why did the Holy Spirit not help you long ago?
Phat writes:
And why, after only a month of small changes do I suddenly feel empowered?
You seemed to think you were pretty "empowered" before. You were pretty arrogant about it back then.
Phat writes:
I say that in my mind, God made a change.
I agree that it's all in your mind.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Phat, posted 10-07-2022 3:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 553 of 1864 (899158)
10-09-2022 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by candle2
10-09-2022 9:34 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
candle2 writes:
Sunday worship. Sunday is the mark of both
the Roman Empire and its image, the RCC.
So you're an SDA?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by candle2, posted 10-09-2022 9:34 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by candle2, posted 10-09-2022 2:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 555 of 1864 (899160)
10-09-2022 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by candle2
10-09-2022 2:44 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
candle2 writes:
I am not a Seventh Day Adventist.
But you're against Sunday worship?
(And much of the creationist crap that we hear originated with the SDAs.)

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by candle2, posted 10-09-2022 2:44 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by candle2, posted 10-09-2022 3:19 PM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024