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Author | Topic: Did the Flood really happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17179 Joined:
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quote: No it is a fact that your point is completely redundant. We know how much water the Earth has. More, if the amount of granite matters then the amount on the Earth matters not the amount on the Moon. And simply asserting that the Earth has a lot of water is not nearly enough to provide any significant support for a global flood. quote: It is a fact that my own investigations have not found anything that really supports your claim. At most the crystallisation of granite might release water trapped in the minerals. Which means that the water must already be there. It is also a fact that you have contradicted yourself, a fact that you use vagueness to pretend to have an important point and a fact that you claim to know better even when you obviously don’t. If you don’t like being distrusted then you shouldn’t do do much to earn that distrust.
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ringo Member Posts: 19752 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.9
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Then that creates an even bigger problem for you. But you didn't answer any of my questions: 1. Where does the input energy come from? And don't forget my question from an earlier post: 4. Where does the extra H come from to turn OH into HOH? Be specific. Answer each question individually and in detail. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5191 Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
While you are sitting in the corner during your time-out, this would be a good time for you to engage in some self-examination and contemplation over what had landed you here. Not that I can imagine you ever doing that.
Repeatedly and with sickening regularity, you make blatantly false claims which you refuse to support in any manner whatsoever. Furthermore, you expect us to do all your work for you and then, when we do that, you ignore our answers and just repeat that stupid cycle yet again. If you think that our harsh judgement of you is unjustified, you are very seriously dead wrong. Obviously, you need to reform your misconduct into something more constructive, socially acceptable, and conducive to discussion. Instead, your persistent conduct is that of typical creationists who are capable of nothing more than regurgitating false "creation science" claims with absolutely no comprehension of what they are spouting. As a result, when we attempt to engage them in a discussion of their claims they try to hide their abject ignorance of their own claims through many dishonest polemic tactics all designed to avoid discussion, the same ones that you yourself use persistently. If you actually had any clue what you were talking about, you should have no reason to always resort to such polemic tricks. At that other forum, you claim to be a geologist. You have hinted here that you hold a doctorate in that field and that you have taught the subject. It is abundantly clear from your persistent actions that none of that is true. And if you had actually taught classes in that or any scientific subject, how would you treat a student who did as you do, make wild assertions that he then refuses to support with anything but frantic hand-waving and proclaiming himself to possess an intellect far superior to your own? Yeah, you would also give that idiot the bum's rush out the door. And you have the gall to expect different treatment? I just looked at the graduation requirements for a BS Geology from a local state university. 30 semester units are required from related fields, such as biology, chemistry, mathematics, and physics, so your demonstrated abject ignorance of such subjects (especially mathematics and physics) exposes your fraud. Even if a student were to avoid the physics classes, one of the required major courses is geophysics ("Physics for Stoners" akin to "Physics for Poets"?), so there should be absolutely no excuse for a geologist to demonstrate such abject ignorance of physics as you present here. Now, there is a history of creationists claiming credentials such as doctorates but which they did not earn but rather had either purchased from a degree mill or received as an honorary degree. For example, convicted fraud Kent Hovind bought a "PhD" in Religious Studies so he calls himself "Dr. Dino" (which was also the domain name of his previous website before his decade-long stint in federal prison) and which he used to deceive his followers into thinking that he must be a scientist (he would just stress the "Dr", not what it was supposed to have been in). He even went so far as to force the phone company to list him in the phone book as "Dr. Hovind". Another example is Harold Slusher who in the early days of "creation science" had strong ties with the ICR and had written a lot of early "creation science" materials (eg, the ubiquitous appendix listing uniformitarian estimates showing young earth ages, including his bogus moon dust claim in which he misquoted his source and violated basic mathematical principles in order to inflate his results by a factor of 10,000 (ie, his expected "284 foot thick" layer of meteoric dust on the moon actually turns out to be 1/3-inch thick, which is pretty much what we actually found). He appears to have actually earned an MS Science degree, but he also received a couple honorary degrees. When he joined the Physics Dept of the University of Texas at El Paso, he was at first listed as "Dr. Slusher", for which he had clearly misrepresented his honorary degrees to the university. Then mysteriously the faculty list for that department went missing, but finally it reappeared and Slusher was still there but no longer listed as "Dr." I just now went back to their site and Harold Slusher is no longer listed as faculty or staff, so he must have since retired and/or moved on. BTW, over the years I have received a number of emails from his students all complaining about him (and not in a good way). So, I don't know what degree mill you bought your degree from.
As I've already told you, you need to start doing your own homework. And then present your findings to us showing your work. I've done it at least a few times here already, whereas you have never even begun to do the same. And this brings us back to that very basic question and problem which you have consistently ignored: If you require certain effects (eg, the length of the year having changed drastically to account for the reported extreme longevity of the Patriarchs), then you must first determine how much of that change is required. Then and only then can you even begin to figure out what mechanisms could produce those required effects, if any. OK, I'm thinking like an engineer here, but then I am a retired engineer (albeit a software engineer, which other engineers think isn't real engineering, much as how physicists and other real scientists think that geology isn't a real science -- refer to Sheldon Cooper's statements about geology, now that you have all this free time on your hands). A basic software design approach is to first define the outputs that you need, then define the inputs that you would need, and finally the data processing that would be required to convert those inputs into those required outputs. Whenever you wish to endeavor to design a new product, the very first step you absolutely must take is to specify exactly what that product shall (an extremely special and all-powerful word in any and all specifications) do. You have never ever provided us with that absolutely essential specification. You have consistently and persistently refused to define what your bizarre scenarios would require. You couldn't even figure out on your own how many times greater 950 years would be than 120 years. That is simple division! And yet performing simple division is completely beyond your extremely limited mental capacity? And you want to claim to have an advanced degree in a science? Really? Now you demand for me to calculate this: "What if the collision was between a moon-size or larger body and the earth? And they hit at an angle? Even at a 90° angle?" OK, you unthinkingly reject absolutely everything that I or the rest of the forum membership present to you. At the same time you persistently refuse to seek any answers yourself. That is actually understandable, as presented by Wakefield when trying in vain to work with Robert Gentry: quote: BTW, Gentry's "basement Genesis" rock from which he had extracted his polonium halo samples turned out to be in igneous intrusions into metamorphic rock. If you actually had any background in geology, you would understand that, but I doubt that you will. In another Wakefield article on that subject which I do not have access to right now, that was worded in this manner (ie, I am very strongly paraphrasing here): quote: At all costs, because the creationists' god can only be supported and defended through lies and deception. So then, what are the results we should expect from your own calculations for that problem that you presented me with? And in addition, since all such massively astronomical events that you now assert and require (ie, "The earth was hit by asteroids, moons, planets many many times.") must have occurred within human history. That is directly and verbatim from your Message 2305. And the only reason that you are invoking such events are is to invoke sudden and drastic astronomical changes (ie, to the earth's orbit) within human history! OK, so tell us everything about those "asteroids, moons, planets" that had hit the earth "many many times." Give me a such event, Vasili. Just one! That's all we need. Oh! You cannot? Интересно! (sorry, I did try to avoid switching to thinking in Russian there; that reference to "The Hunt for Red October" undid me -- Interesting!) You want to know what the effect would be of: "What if the collision was between a moon-size or larger body and the earth? And they hit at an angle? Even at a 90° angle?" So figure it out for yourself! One definition of a PhD I recently heard is that its real measure is for your ability to do inhumanly long hours of incredibly tedious work. And yet you, who wants to claim a PhD, cannot even do such simple calculations yourself, let along simple division? Just what the hell is wrong with you? You have about three days to formulate your response. I am not holding my breath, having had to deal with you f*cking creationists since 1981. Your move.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5191 Joined: Member Rating: 3.0
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I know that I have already shown you that your hand-waving ravings are nonsense that do not come anywhere close to supporting what your false assertions would require. But since I just got more information on that geologic event and the asteroid, the Chicxulub impactor, I felt that we should use the information in that article to run through this evolution again, even if only for sh*ts and giggles. Here are the salient facts that we will work with:
Still too insignificant to have any meaningful effect.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4721 From: u.k Joined: |
I think I would like to reiterate there is evidence of a flood.
There is. The B.E.D.S model, inselburgs, (erosional remnants), experiments for progradation showing facies can be laid down both laterally and superposed in hydraulic conditions with flume experiments proving it. Water gaps, polystrate fossils, standing arches, paraconformities (flat gaps), and some methods of dating. (Geochronomoters). Trackways in straight lines indicating fleeing organisms. New experiments have also now shown bouyancy counters any sedimentation meaning you need a LOT of sediment to counter the gases in the carcasses of animals, which leads to bloat-and-float disarticulation of fossils. A flood is the perfect mechanism for fossilisation because of the large sediment hauls conducive to quick burial and preservation. There is also C14 in diamonds and soft tissue in various dino bones more favourable to youth, despite the desperate explanations put forward for why they could last millions of years. There is also the correctly qualified evidence we would expect from a flood. Obviously because of what the bible says about the flood, a flood would have been easy to falsify, all you would have had to say before finding the rock record is this;"well if the flood killed everything while it was living, all we need to do is show we won't find every phyla or type of animal preserved dead killed by a flood." That would have been easy, because obviously the bible says all life perished. But the fact we find fossils fighting, in the suffocation position, tracks of them scurrying, digesting meals, giving birth, and the fact we find all types of life, is the exact type of evidence to expect from a flood. There is simply PLENTY of evidence better answered by a flood. In the rocks we would also expect to NOT find any intermediates for bats, pterosaurs, ichthyosaurs, snails, trees. Obviously if it is a history of created kinds, no matter how far back we went in the rock record we would expect to find things that pretty much look the same as they do today. Here's a little list I prepared earlier of some that appear with no evolutionary history and can be found today and even compared to their living counterparts and they look IDENTICAL. To say this is not the evidence expected from a flood/creation scenario is to LIE, and LIARS will have to answer to God when they stand before Him. The Coelacanth Fish (340 million years old) (nitpicking one or two examples then complaining, won't change the overall theme here which is that evolution is fiction.)
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PaulK Member Posts: 17179 Joined:
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quote: Well let’s see how you do presenting it. quote: So, claims of a model, small scale experiments carried out under artificial conditions which likely won’t scale up, and things which are unexplained (as far as I am aware any dating method that works confirms the antiquity of the Earth). And I’d love to know how your floating fancies can preserve trackways. quote: And no explanation of why this should be considered evidence, especially in the light of the order of the fossil record. quote: And this contradicts the “bloat and float” which argues that a flood is not that great for sudden burial compared to landslides or sandstorms. quote: C14 is only found in trace amounts, and no actual soft tissue has been found - only it’s altered remains (if that). quote: This is just silly. It would only be “easy” to refute the Flood were like that if at least one extant phylum didn’t escape fossilation. Which is not even remotely likely. The desperate clutching at straws makes the weakness of the case perfectly obvious. quote: Or the exact evidence we would expect from the conventional view. Indeed the “bloat and float” model predicts none of this. quote: Cherry picked examples - even if they were entirely true - are hardly good evidence. For instance, the early ichthyosaurs are so different from the later, that it is questionable if they should be included in the group. Which is an example of how things do not look the same as today, when there are no ichthyosaurs at all. quote: Of course it isn’t. Especially as I only need look at the “examples” to see who the “LIAR” is. Modern coelacanths are NOT identical to the fossil varieties- they aren’t even considered to be in the same genus.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5191 Joined: Member Rating: 3.0
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Wow, so much empty verbiage, so little time.
It's like trying to discuss anything with a Trumpian "Republican" troll. They immediately start spewing a constant fire-hose stream of pure BS that no rational person could possibly respond to in real time. We also know it as the "Gish Gallop". You say:
Rather, pointing out that some of your "examples" are pure BS is an indication that all your other "examples" are also pure BS.
Really? Do you have any clue at all what radiocarbon dating is or how it works? Any clue at all? It really is not at all complicated. So how could you be so completely stupid about it? Except that that is what your "creation science" requires of you. Do please respond directly to this one so I can explain to you how the cow ate the cabbage (one of my father's Texanisms meaning explaining how things actually work).
Oh! A quote! A direct quote! Yet completely devoid of any actual citation. WHO THE HELL ARE YOU QUOTING? And where the frak is your bibliography? Oh, yeah, right. This is just yet another example of lying creationist quote-minining, you f*cking lying creationist! Why do you believe that your god can only be served through lying and deceiving? Obviously you know nothing about Christian doctrine, since you cannot immediately identify the one and only Christian deity who is served by lies and deception (HINT: Lucifer). Now, back around 1990 I personally did find an article in either Nature or Science about "green fossils". I'm sure I have a photocopy of it somewhere in my boxes of files, but I cannot lay my hands on it immediately. The thing about "green fossils" is that they still contain DNA. Also, this article dealt with magnolia leaves instead of sycamore. What they found was that morphologically all the samples were identical, but genetically they were quite different. Indeed, the genetic differences provided enough data that the researchers were able to create a phylogenetic tree of descent for those trees. Of course, none of that explains why you would ever think that your "little list" should have any validity at all. What is your gross misunderstanding of evolution that would lead you to think that your "little list" should be any kind of a problem for science? After many decades, I have yet to see any such explanation from any creationist.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6835 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Yeah, Mikey, keep trying to piss up that rope. You folks lost that argument a hundred years ago and nothing you can conjure is going to change that. But, if it helps you cope with life to stomp your feet, stick you fingers in your ears, close your eyes and shout your errant catechism then we will be patient until you grow up. Factio Republicana delenda est. ![]()
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FLRW Member (Idle past 53 days) Posts: 70 Joined: |
*
See Twenty-one Reasons Noah’s Worldwide Flood Never Happened by LORENCE G. COLLINS Here’s a geologist’s critical analysis of false perceptions held by many creationists about the Worldwide Flood and the age of the Earth. *
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JonF Member Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Floods ain't flumes.
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LamarkNewAge ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 56 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
Creation, in 6 days, got a mention during the Deuteronomy version of the 10 commandment's sabbath words ( cast into the stone tablets in Deuteronomy, but not Exodus 20).
Your new thread talks about literal "Biblical" views, based on plain readings, of scripture. You referenced Genesis 1 to 2. But there was no Genesis 1:1 to 2: 1, in the days of the former prophets. Jeremiah ( not to be confused with the mentioned former prophet reference) did not seem to have the first 3 and a half verses of Genesis 2, nor did the actual Isaiah ( the one who wrote the first 39 chapters). Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 56 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
I confused thread authors.
I thought Mike the Wiz started this.
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Admin Director Posts: 12814 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Those responding to mike the wiz should read Message 2 of Mike's Everyone is a bible literalist or nobody is thread proposal.
Mike's recent Message 2360 is just a cut-n-paste of his earlier Message 255. Of the 5 replies to that message, Mike replied to none of them.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5191 Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
To start with, we fully acknowledge that mike-the-whizzer is a hit-and-run troller who engages in run-by copy-and-paste word-saladings. As Percy demonstrated in his Message 2 reply to Whizzer's latest word salad PNT, which he just pointed us to.
I also asked mike to explain what he was talking about and never got any answer. Not even any kind of direct statement of his implied claim. No actual direct claim, just a shady implication that something might be wrong without ever telling us what he thinks is wrong and why. IOW, typical dishonest creationist deception. As always, since creationists refuse to ever tell us what they are talking about (not that any of them understand it themselves, but that's another story), we have to take what little they do say and try to reconstruct their argument for them. It appears that their argument is that "evolutionists" say that, because of C14's short half-life (5,730 ± 40 years), any sample containing C14 will end up having none after about 50,000 years. And yet we find samples, such as coal and diamonds, which are much older and still have trace amounts of C14. Therefore they must actually be younger than 50,000, radiocarbon dating is false, the earth is young, and their entire intricate fundamentalist theology is proven to be absolutely true. Amen.
They are leaving out two very important issues:
Basically, C14 is produced when a nitrogen nucleus (At.No. 7, At.Wt. 14) is hit by and absorbs a neutron which causes a proton to be expelled resulting in an isotope of carbon (normally 6/12), carbon-14 (6/14). There are other reactions that would produce C14, but this is given as the main one. Basically, all you need is some radiation source (though lightning will also work) which are plentiful in the earth's crust and so will account for the on-going production of trace amounts of C14 in coal, diamonds, and the like. That explains what actually causes the "mysterious" appearance of C14 that the Whizz is talking about. And those sources of C14 have nothing whatsoever to do with radiocarbon dating. Another source of radiation is cosmic rays penetrating the earth's atmosphere. Now that is the source which radiocarbon dating is based on. And here is basically how radiocarbon dating works:
Note a few important points:
In most cases, all it takes is basic knowledge of the subject matter to completely refute creationist claims. Something that mike and other creationists obviously do not have (or do have but they're lying). Of course and as always, if mike disagrees and truly believes that his claim has any merit, then he is free to explain why he believes that. Nobody is keeping him from doing that. Nothing is keeping him from doing that -- except maybe his knowledge that his claim is completely false and deceptive, but that assumes that he has some integrity ("integrity" and "creationist" are two words that do not go together). Of course, mike will never do that. Edited by dwise1, : added subtitle and final sentence Edited by dwise1, : ABEs, plus added final paragraph Edited by dwise1, : "then they would know better than to present them in public outside of conditions that they cannot control very strictly." in the second ABE doesn't read well. Corrected it. Edited by dwise1, : changed subtitle
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Pollux Member Posts: 277 Joined: |
YECs are fond of trying to find little difficulties in age issues, but rather than endlessly refuting them, l thought, what would a YEC lake deposit show, such as in Lake Malawi which is quite deep, with anoxic deposits which have no bioturbation?
YEC with rapid radioactive decay in the Flood year would show more or less linear increase in C14 age with depth of deposit to about 4500 years or less if the lake is younger. Older lakes with Flood deposits would then show a rapid increase to 50,000 as you struck them. In contrast, Lake Malawi has many C14 dates, 3 tephra, and some magnetic chronology dates all falling on a line linearly increasing with depth to a date in excess of 1,000,000 years. That would seem to falsify YEC. Any flaws in the argument? My wife's church is hosting CMI in three months and l hope to be able to ask some pertinent questions.
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