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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 346 of 895 (886330)
05-16-2021 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by ringo
05-15-2021 9:28 PM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
ringo writes:
You openly reject what Jesus said, so you have no business claiming to have the "right" view of Christianity.
Perhaps my view is immaturely developed and in that sspirit I agree with you. I have no right.
I'm claiming that neither do any of you. Especially if you believe any of these faux commandments.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 05-15-2021 9:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 10:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 347 of 895 (886331)
05-16-2021 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
05-15-2021 6:10 PM


Phat Time
Mr. Deity can move aside for a moment as I unpack this one.
You want to use this thread for your own nefarious purposes?
I hear you're a big wig around here. In good with the management and all.
Yeah, ok. You want to lead the Happy Sundae Sundae Service Sermon? She be all yours.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 05-15-2021 6:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 1:18 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 348 of 895 (886332)
05-16-2021 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by AZPaul3
05-16-2021 1:08 AM


Re: Phat Time
Thanks, AZ. I will only hijack the thread for a moment in order to present my rant over progressive Christianity to the anti-theists. Mr. Deity would likely mop the floor with me. But I try.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by AZPaul3, posted 05-16-2021 1:08 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 349 of 895 (886333)
05-16-2021 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by ringo
05-15-2021 9:28 PM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
quote:
Which Position Is Intellectually Irresponsible?
I suspect that part of the issue in play here is that progressives think it is intellectually irresponsible to make the kind of truth-claims that Christians have historically made. It sounds arrogant. Even cocksure. How could anyone know such a thing? (...)Imagine you recently took a class on the Civil War. If a friend then asks "Did Abraham Lincoln sign the Emancipation Proclamation?" and you answer "Yes", you could hardly be chided as an arrogant know-it-all. (...) Of course, progressives will argue this is a false comparison because we know Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation but we don't know that, say, Jesus was raised from the dead. But that is the very thing in dispute! (...) The only way that the progressive argument works is if one already "knows" the Bible is not the word of God and therefore can declare all its truth-claims to be dubious. But how does the progressive know this? Isn't it off-limits, from the progressive point of view,to claim absolute knowledge about such things? To put it another way, in order for the progressive position to be intellectually defensible, one would have to know that you can't know whether the resurrection actually happened or not. But that would require a high level of intellectual certainty-something the progressive claims one cannot have.
6) Encouraging the Personal Search Is More Important Than Group Uniformity--
7) Meeting Actual Needs Is More Important Than Maintaining Institutions--
8)Peacemaking Is More Important Than Power--
9) We Should Care More about Love and Less about Sex--
10) Life in This World Is More Important Than the Afterlife--
So there you have it. Care to discuss any of them?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 05-15-2021 9:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by anglagard, posted 05-16-2021 9:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 353 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2021 9:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 10:46 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 350 of 895 (886334)
05-16-2021 1:20 AM


Phat Time
Happy Sundae, yet again. I know it seems we just did this like a week ago but time just will not slow down anymore. It’s always go, go, go with time, so time has come again for our Happy Sundae Sundae Service.
This week, an extra special. A new segment we hope to present whenever he wants: Phat Time.
Ok, no points for title originality. Phat can rename it in his own image.
As if Christianity hasn’t already given us enough versions of the nth Commandments Phat has found for us yet another one of even more dubious origins than the original. The original was laser zapped onto three stone tablets only two of which survived the trip down the mountain and now reside in some US Govt warehouse somewhere while Phat’s new one apparently came from a pamphlet that fell off his fridge.
See Phat’s Message 342 for his part 1. And apparently in crossing messages, here is his part 2 Message 349
Anyway, it’s
Phat Time
so the show is all his.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(5)
Message 351 of 895 (886336)
05-16-2021 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
05-15-2021 6:10 PM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
Relying on a hostile source is always a questionable decision. And in this case, I think an incorrect one. For instance, I’m sure that many Progressive Christians do worship Jesus as God.
Reading between the lines the objections are.
1) Progressive Christians want to follow the teachings attributed to Jesus
2) Progressive Christians do not use cult-like tactics
3) Christians should hate the sin, not the sinner.
4) Doctrinal differences are often insignificant.
5) They disagree with Conservatives on doctrine
Summing these up, it seems to me that the problem is not that Progressive Christians aren’t Christians - it’s that they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 05-15-2021 6:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 352 of 895 (886341)
05-16-2021 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Phat
05-16-2021 1:19 AM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
Phat writes:
9) We Should Care More about Love and Less about Sex--
What does your wife have to say about this?
Oh, never mind, you never married.
Haven't you ever made love to a woman?
Oh, never mind, ......
Phat, feel free to let me know the minute you actually know what you are talking about, Name the subject - Christianity, religion in general, Philosophy, Science (any or all), Politics, History, Sex, whatever.
In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you had more respect for the words of Jesus Christ, which is the sacred duty of every Protestant, instead of further inflicting us with the fake Jesus you and your friends made up.
Edited by anglagard, : get rid of accidental space.

The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 1:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 353 of 895 (886345)
05-16-2021 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Phat
05-16-2021 1:19 AM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
To continue my comments
6) Progressive Christianity isn’t a cult.
(I have to say that I’m surprised you don’t express an agreement with the Progressives on this, Phat. Your “communion” is personal, and if it’s real it shouldn’t be subordinated to the dogma of the group).
7) Progressive Christians are Protestant Christians.
(Remember that little thing called the Reformation - a massive upset to the institutions of the time).
8) Progressive Christians believe Matthew 5:9
9) Progressive Christians are Christians
(St. Paul favoured doing without sex, but not without love. Although I really think this comes to “Biblical Christians” wanting to beat others down, while Progressives want to lift them up).
10) Progressive Christians have a living faith (James 2:14-18).
Maybe you should try browsing this Progressive Christian blog Slacktivist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 1:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 354 of 895 (886346)
05-16-2021 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Phat
05-16-2021 12:11 AM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
Phat writes:
Perhaps my view is immaturely developed and in that sspirit I agree with you. I have no right.
I'm claiming that neither do any of you. Especially if you believe any of these faux commandments.
You have swallowed the line that those "commandments" are "faux". Discuss them before you dismiss them.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 12:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 355 of 895 (886347)
05-16-2021 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Phat
05-16-2021 1:19 AM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
Phat, quoting some idiot, writes:
The only way that the progressive argument works is if one already "knows" the Bible is not the word of God and therefore can declare all its truth-claims to be dubious.
Wrong.
ALL truth claims are dubious without evidence. Until we have evidence that the Bible is "the word of God", we should be just as dubious as we are about the Book of Mormon.
Phat writes:
So there you have it. Care to discuss any of them?
Yes.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 1:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 3:35 PM ringo has replied
 Message 359 by Phat, posted 05-17-2021 4:10 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 356 of 895 (886354)
05-16-2021 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by ringo
05-16-2021 10:46 AM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
ALL truth claims are dubious without evidence. Until we have evidence that the Bible is "the word of God", we should be just as dubious as we are about the Book of Mormon.
So essentially what you are trying to do is take the absolute truth claims of one belief...Historic Christianity...and strip them of their claim to be right...and hang that title instead on "evidence pending" or science. Quite clever and bold, but hardly enforceable. As for the Book of Mormon...it isn't even in the same league with the historic Christian faith. A modern cult at best.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by DrJones*, posted 05-16-2021 4:20 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 358 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 9:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 357 of 895 (886356)
05-16-2021 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Phat
05-16-2021 3:35 PM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
So essentially what you are trying to do is take the absolute truth claims of one belief...Historic Christianity...and strip them of their claim to be right...and hang that title instead on "evidence pending" or science.
and why shouldn't we? after all you do the same thing with the religions you don't follow

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 3:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 358 of 895 (886359)
05-16-2021 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Phat
05-16-2021 3:35 PM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
Phat writes:
So essentially what you are trying to do is take the absolute truth claims of one belief...Historic Christianity...and strip them of their claim to be right...and hang that title instead on "evidence pending" or science.
Yes. That's how thinking works.
Phat writes:
As for the Book of Mormon...it isn't even in the same league with the historic Christian faith.
You're the one who denies the words of Jesus. What you espouse has little to do with the historic Christian faith. What you preach is just right-wing politics.
Phat writes:
A modern cult at best.
You're a textbook example of a cult member. You"re afraid to look at anything that disagrees with your cult's doctrines.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 3:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 359 of 895 (886360)
05-17-2021 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by ringo
05-16-2021 10:46 AM


Some Idiot & Some Deity.
ringo writes:
Phat, quoting some idiot, writes:
The only way that the progressive argument works is if one already "knows" the Bible is not the word of God and therefore can declare all its truth-claims to be dubious.
Wrong.
The idiot in question is this author:
quote:
Michael J. Kruger (PhD, University of Edinburgh) is President and the Samuel C. Patterson Professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte, NC, and the author of a number of books and articles on early Christianity. He is one of the leading scholars today in the study of the origins of the New Testament, particularly the development of the New Testament canon and the transmission of the New Testament text. He is the author of numerous books including The Gospel of the Savior (Brill, 2005), The Heresy of Orthodoxy (Crossway, 2010, with Andreas Köstenberger), Canon Revisited (Crossway, 2012), and The Question of Canon (IVP, 2013). He is also the editor of A Biblical-Theological Introduction to the New Testament (Crossway, 2016), and co-editor of The Early Text of the New Testament (Oxford, 2012), and Gospel Fragments (Oxford, 2009).
Of course I expect that the lot of you are unimpressed with any scholastic achievement in a reformed theological seminary. Perhaps you would listen to some simple guy like "Mr.Deity". I am unimpressed with his scholastic credentials also.
To Wit:
Brian Dalton is a former Mormon, or "Formon". He says that some contributing parts of his de-conversion are the tenet of Mormonism that God punishes people by darkening their skin and the fact that evidence contradicts various claims of the Book of Mormon. Dalton is now an atheist. Dalton came up with the concept for the Mr. Deity web series after his reflections on the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami. Aside from being the actor to portray Mr. Deity, he is the director, writer, cinematographer, and editor.
In other words he is an actor and director of his own show. (Something that would get ire and disdain were he a theist.)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by PaulK, posted 05-17-2021 4:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 05-17-2021 10:02 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 362 by AZPaul3, posted 05-20-2021 5:15 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 360 of 895 (886361)
05-17-2021 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Phat
05-17-2021 4:10 AM


Re: Some Idiot & Some Deity.
Since the assertion is obviously false, credentials aren’t really relevant. So long as we don’t know that the Bible IS the literal Word of God its claims would be questionable.
But it goes beyond that. First there is the issue of interpretation- can we really say that obvious myths were intended to be understood as literal truth.
Then there is the textual evidence. Where an author is identified it’s always a human. There are sections which claim to be God’s words, but the fact of singling those out implies that the rest is not. Not to mention the fact that the Bible is a disparate collection of works, all of which would need to be individually validated.
Moreover there are disagreements and errors within the Bible, even where there are no great questions of interpretation.
Kruger certainly ought to be aware of all this. If he isn’t that reflects badly on him.
And, as a side note, why would we condemn an amateur for being author and director of his own show? Seriously you should drop the silly persecution complex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Phat, posted 05-17-2021 4:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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