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Author
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Topic: The God Delusion Debate
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17912 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 6.7
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Message 76 of 99 (886080)
05-05-2021 8:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
05-05-2021 8:35 AM
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Re: The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
quote:
Yet he cloaks it with "what Jesus said to do." And Jesus was far far from Marxism.
I think you are confusing communism in a more general sense with Marxism in particular. Neither Ringo nor Jesus say much about the proletariat seizing the means of production! But the Disciples seem pretty communist to me - only a little while after Jesus’ death:
44 All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. (Acts 2, NRSV)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:35 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:51 AM | | PaulK has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18638 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.3
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Message 77 of 99 (886081)
05-05-2021 8:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 70 by jar
05-05-2021 7:51 AM
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Delusions Of Magik,Favoritism and Entitlement
jar writes: Reality controls science. Quite so. Science is evidence based. Perhaps a better rephrasing of the question is Does Evidence Control Belief? And should it? I have been asked many times to answer the question as to The Holy Spirit being present and/or Jesus being alive. Jar always claims that nobody has given him an answer. My esponse to that is why he seems dense and confused enough to nver come up with his own answer, apart from vetoing traditional beliefs in the name of evidence based science. I certainly found my own answers, but will never be able to explain my own mind to anyone else. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by jar, posted 05-05-2021 7:51 AM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18638 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.3
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Message 78 of 99 (886082)
05-05-2021 8:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 76 by PaulK
05-05-2021 8:48 AM
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Re: The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
Good point. ringo himself has mentioned being quite far to the left ideologically. Marxism is an outdated concept. (some of us think communism is also, seeing as how it failed after the Cold War. The only folks left who embraced it lived in nations too poor to ever embrace Capitalism.) As for Jesus and the Book of Acts, I see it as a story in the context of those times. No humans worth their salt would ever lay everything at the feet of Government.(Todays Apostles) Nor would they lay it at the feet of some televangelist!  Which begs the question as to Whom we are called to give it all up for and whose feet we should lay our stuff under.  Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2021 8:48 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2021 9:22 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 85 by ringo, posted 05-05-2021 11:40 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 86 by jar, posted 05-05-2021 11:55 AM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 91 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 79 of 99 (886083)
05-05-2021 9:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
05-05-2021 8:25 AM
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Re: Bias is unavoidable?
Phat writes: You yourself have used science to justify describing the Creator of all seen and unseen as unknowable,which is to me a clear bias against Christianity. No Phat, stop misrepresenting my position. I am a Christian and so to claim I have a bias against Christianity is just plain stupid. I use evidence to reach a conclusion including what is actually written in the Bible.
Phat writes: You and ringo also assert scientifically that Jesus likely never existed and that the Virgin Birth is simply a marketing tool. You can say that your argument is unbiased and is simply logic, reason, and reality in action, but the fact that you market the notion that evidence based logic is the cornerstone of your religion and belief while literally showing bias towards organized Christianity and intolerance towards its believers Again Phat, stop misrepresenting my position. What I have said repeatedly is that there is no evidence that Jesus ever really existed. Evidence is not the cornerstone of my religion; belief is. What I point out is that it is dishonest to claim something a fact when it is only supported by belief and not evidence beyond the fact that I hold beliefs. I'm not intolerant of others that hold different beliefs as long as they do not attempt to impose their beliefs on others. When you or others try to claim that the god you create and worship is more valid or real or correct than Ganesha or Buddha or Allah or Ra then of course I take exception. Remember Phat, the CCoI are not demons and are certainly Christians, just very willfully ignorant Christian.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:25 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17912 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 6.7
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Message 80 of 99 (886084)
05-05-2021 9:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
05-05-2021 8:51 AM
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Re: The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
quote:
Marxism is an outdated concept. (some of us think communism is also, seeing as how it failed after the Cold War. The only folks left who embraced it lived in nations too poor to ever embrace Capitalism.)
Well, that is all varieties of Marxism, at least in name.
quote:
As for Jesus and the Book of Acts, I see it as a story in the context of those times. No humans worth their salt would ever lay everything at the feet of Government.
That’s hardly what anyone is telling you to do.
quote:
Nor would they lay it at the feet of some televangelist
Unfortunately too many people do send too much money to televangelists.
quote:
Which begs the question as to Whom we are called to give it all up for and whose feet we should lay our stuff under.
You’re practically begging jar to cite Matthew 25 at you - again.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:51 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 6.7
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Message 81 of 99 (886087)
05-05-2021 11:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
05-05-2021 8:32 AM
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Re: Bias is unavoidable?
Phat writes: many populist conservatives thought that he was shut down by a liberally leaning media. I'm sure they do and nothing will change their minds. Yet in fact all that happened was he broke the T&Cs of the media platforms and was lucky to have been tolerated for so long.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:32 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 664 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 82 of 99 (886088)
05-05-2021 11:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
05-05-2021 8:25 AM
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Re: Bias is unavoidable?
Phat writes: jar writes: There is nothing in science that is atheistic.
True, but there appears to be nothing theistic either.
Same with the phone book. There are some things where theism just isn't applicable.
Phat writes: I know (as does everyone else) that your arguments are designed to expose and demonize CCoI believers. Which is biased.
The methodology is not biased. On some level, we are biased against murderers, robbers, liars, etc. but the methodology we use to catch them is not inherently biased.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:25 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6484 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 8.8
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Message 83 of 99 (886089)
05-05-2021 11:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 69 by marc9000
05-05-2021 7:42 AM
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Now, beginning only in the past few decades, and ramping up drastically in only the past few years, we're seeing an increasing hostility and intolerance towards conservative free speech.
Where? Is there any evidence of this? I still see great respect for freedom of speech.
For months now, Donald Trump has been banned from Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Youtube, and Snapchat.
That has nothing to do with free speech. Those are private businesses. And, according to conservative principles (if there are any of those remaining), businesses are entitled to make these decisions.
This forum's longtime poster Faith, was permanently banned, not for breaking forum rules or vulgar language, but for having an opinion on something that administration deemed "dangerous".
Again, that has nothing to do with free speech. I opposed the banning of Faith. However, this is a privately owned forum. The owner of the forum has the right to make that decision as a way of exercising his right of free speech. And you have the right to setup your own forum if you wish to.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by marc9000, posted 05-05-2021 7:42 AM | | marc9000 has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 664 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 84 of 99 (886090)
05-05-2021 11:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
05-05-2021 8:35 AM
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Re: The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
Phat writes: PaulK writes: ... there aren’t any Marxists here, for instance.
Ringo is darn close!
Learn what Marxism is. Marx was concerned about class struggle and so are you. I am not.
Phat writes: Yet he cloaks it with "what Jesus said to do."
Jesus said what he said.
Phat writes: This whole idea that the world should be some secular Kum Ba Yah brother and sisterhood is never gonna fly on my watch!
Well, Jesus did preach brother and sisterhood - and yes, we know you're against what Jesus said.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:35 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 664 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 85 of 99 (886091)
05-05-2021 11:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
05-05-2021 8:51 AM
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Re: The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
Phat writes: ringo himself has mentioned being quite far to the left ideologically.
I have also mentioned that ideologies are for lazy thinkers. In some ways I am more conservative than you.
Phat writes: Marxism is an outdated concept.
Maybe so.
Phat writes: some of us think communism is also, seeing as how it failed after the Cold War.
I always ask, and never get much of an answer: Did communism fail because of its own flaws? Or did it fail because its enemies spent billions and billions and billions of dollars to make it fail?
Phat writes: The only folks left who embraced it lived in nations too poor to ever embrace Capitalism.
That's an interesting comment on capitalism. Are you saying one has to be rich to embrace capitalism?
Phat writes: No humans worth their salt would ever lay everything at the feet of Government.
Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Nobody is saying ANYTHING about government. We're talking about laying everything at JESUS' feet.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:51 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 91 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 86 of 99 (886092)
05-05-2021 11:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
05-05-2021 8:51 AM
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Re: The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
Phat writes: No humans worth their salt would ever lay everything at the feet of Government. You keep using the word Government. I don't think you know what the word means! Since we are in the USofA, what do you think the word Government means in relation to the people living in the USofA?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Phat, posted 05-05-2021 8:51 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Phat, posted 05-06-2021 11:36 AM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18638 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.3
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Message 87 of 99 (886108)
05-06-2021 11:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 86 by jar
05-05-2021 11:55 AM
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Re: The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
Of, By, and For the people?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by jar, posted 05-05-2021 11:55 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by jar, posted 05-06-2021 12:29 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 91 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 88 of 99 (886111)
05-06-2021 12:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
05-06-2021 11:36 AM
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Re: The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
Phat writes: Of, By, and For the people? Okay, you can copy & paste. What does that mean?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Phat, posted 05-06-2021 11:36 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22940 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 6.9
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Message 89 of 99 (886119)
05-06-2021 5:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by dwise1
05-03-2021 5:44 PM
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Re: Concluding statements
dwise1 writes: Even though the current creationists may realize defeat, undoubtedly the next generation of creationists, not knowing about that defeat since nobody will tell them about it, will try to pick up the fight again. I don't think current creationists recognize defeat so much as that they're just not in the same league as the previous generation of creationists. There were a large number of very active and very effective creationists at the national level twenty years ago. If we were still dealing with the equivalent of Henry Morris, Duane Gish, Michael Behe, William Dembski, Andrew Snelling, John Baumgardner, Kent Hovind, Kurt Wise, Walt Brown and so forth in their prime I think things would be very different. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by dwise1, posted 05-03-2021 5:44 PM | | dwise1 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 91 by AZPaul3, posted 05-06-2021 5:54 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 93 by marc9000, posted 05-06-2021 6:53 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22940 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 6.9
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Message 90 of 99 (886121)
05-06-2021 5:49 PM
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A Thread for the Political Discussion
This is a creation/evolution thread, so I've created a different thread for the political discussion that's taking place here: Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals?. Hopefully the title is appropriate enough. --Percy
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