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Author | Topic: Conversations with God | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I don't think of brotherhood in terms of closeness. I have one brother who lives 350 miles away, I haven't seen him face-to-face in six years and he doesn't have a phone or Internet. But he's my brother.
People at church call me "brother" all the time, but I feel closer to you, AZ, PaulK, Tangle, and even jar (and those of you whom I didnt mention) than I do to the members at church. Phat writes:
The next step is to realize that that "spirit" has nothing to do with any external entity.
I can always tell when you have the Spirit because you speak with an added sense of humor. Phat writes:
If there was an (alien over)Lord, my guess is that he would weep over the likes of robertleva. ...and yet He weeps as well because so few of His chosen guests even bothered to show up at the banquet."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Many of us used to have faith. This thread is about how people of faith pray and personal experiences with God. Why are you unfaithful even here if the entire point of the thread presupposes the audience have faith?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
robertleva writes:
Did I say there was something I don't like about religion?
I am on your side most likely in most of what you do not like about religion. robertleva writes:
What negativity? When have I ever been anything but nice to you?
I ask you to set aside all this negativity that consumes your posts for a second... robertleva writes:
I lost my faith in Christ for the same reason I lost my faith in Santa. It had nothing to do with evils done in the name of Santa. Is it possible that the evils done in the name of God have stopped you from giving believers a fair chance here on this forum? I always give believers a fair chance. I just don't swallow their hooks, lines and sinkers. When they start seeing demons in me, they've blown their fair chance."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As a matter of fact, I do: Where I used to live there was a pit bull living across the alley. One day when I was coming home, he was out of his yard. As I approached, he was growling at me and barking his head off. I told him calmly (on the outside) that I wasn't going to hurt him. And I didn't. Do you treat a Pit Bull whom you encounter the same way you would a puppy or a small friendly dog? I talk to squirrels the same way.
Phat writes:
You're really not, though. You're expressing an opinion, not explaining why your opinion makes any sense.
I'm just pointing out the silliness and illogic of relativism. Phat writes:
How do you know that? And it was not Chutulu or the Spaghetti Monster that I sensed speaking to me inwardly. If you hear voices in your head, obviously you're going to associate them with the "God" that you've heard about since birth. But how do you explain the other people who have the same experience as you but associate it with a different God that they have heard about from birth? Your God is not alone in the race. He isn't even ahead."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Isn't that like challenging yourself to eat a chocolate fudge sundae? Im never looking for a way to disprove god or Jesus. I am only looking to challenge myself."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No. It was the emptiness.
If there was something you didnt like about the religion you say you came from (and out of) it would be the claim to exclusivity. Which kinda goes hand in hand as to why you left it. Phat writes:
You'd want it if you cared about the truth. If you were honest, you would SHOW the incompleteness and prematurity instead of just making false accusations.
It is your incomplete and prematurely deduced evidence that led you astray. Why on earth would I want that? Phat writes:
Duh. I have no belief.
So if a guy like you believes in no external entities, he must either have no belief or believe in himself. Phat writes:
Of course it does. Chance dies not exist."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes, the Jesus you made up tells you to avoid the straight and narrow. I'll admit that my Jesus goes easier on me than one you would give me which you found in that dusty old book!"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes, really. Literally. ringo writes:
Not really. Yes, the Jesus you made up tells you to avoid the straight and narrow. The Jesus in the dusty old book told you what you must do to be saved. The Jesus you made up tells you to scoff at the book.
Phat writes:
The widow was told to feed Elijah even though it meant she and her son would die.
He just does not want to give me more than I can handle at the moment. Phat writes:
Yes, that's what the rich young ruler did. Jesus didn't change the message to make it more convenient for people who didn't want to do what He said.
He knows that if He told me to give everything up I would run from Him. Phat writes:
The whole idea of a God is empty. The idea that he would commune with you is emptier. So tell me why Christianity was so empty.Was it the religion, the history, or the people? "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You were told you should feel that way and you were eager to feel that way. Once I got zapped, I never felt the same since. Feelings are a slippery thing. We can convince ourselves to feel a certain way. But feelings don't determine reality."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I don't believe it. I have hardly ever heard a sermon where they didn't tell you how wonderful and joyous it is to be "saved". The hymns do it too.
I was only told that Christians had to become born again in order to be genuine. Phat writes:
You were taught backwards. Faith is only faith. It is only genuine if it is manifested as actions (James 2).
But we were taught that actions in and of themselves were simply actions....works, if you will. Phat writes:
You don't even believe the book, so your Jesus must be made up. ringo charges me with making Him up. I didnt write the book, however."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I don't believe it. You grew up in a society that is so permeated with the buzzwords and catchphrases that you'd have to be deaf and blind not to know them. Did you celebrate Christmas? Did you ever hear Joy to the World? I think you learned from a very early age to associate Jesus with joy.
I got saved the first month before I ever even learned the buzzwords and catchphrases. Phat writes:
You refuse to consider the possibility that you could be wrong about the "voices". How is that different from Faith? And I felt as if she had too much pride and certainty that she and she alone was right about things. Do I come across the same way?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, I won't. It's the truth. Will you ever stop claiming that your "communion" trumps the dusty old book?
ringo writes:
Will you stop saying that! You don't even believe the book, so your Jesus must be made up. Phat writes:
You haven't challenged me on that. It's what the Bible says. All you're doing is denying Jesus.
The only part which I have publicly challenged you on is the idea that all Christians are taught to give everything up. Phat writes:
It's crazy if you don't trust God. But as I have pointed out before, there are people who do it. Jesus' disciples did it. The lady with two mites did it. The early church did it (Ananias and Sapphira). Even before Jesus, the widow who fed Elijah did it. Monastic communities have always done it. Even other religions such as Buddhists do it. It is simply crazy. So please stop saying it can't be done.
Phat writes:
Because Jesus told you to. Why do you need more reason than that? Besides, why are only we called to do it? Because you supposedly believe that God will take care of you.
Phat writes:
Of course not. Who promised you a rose garden? Thats not very fair is it."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And humans have a better grasp of what morality should entail than do cows? A cow would think it's immoral to eat cows. One assumption, too, is that GOD has a better grasp of what morality should entail than do humans."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
There is always a reason to question everything.
I neverhad any reason to even question whether Jesus existed or not... Phat writes:
And you still don't understand giving up everything. ... until you started telling me that He wanted me to give it all up. Think of those exercises where you close your eyes and let yourself fall backwards, trusting the others in the room not to let you fall. Little children love to have their fathers throw them up in the air and catch them. That's what Jesus meant when He said you should have the faith of a little child. You should trust your father (earthly or heavenly) to catch you when you fall.
Phat writes:
It isn't rocket science. It means to do what He told you to do.
The only question there is what it means to smarten up... Phat writes:
There's no double standard. Everybody who believes God exists should do what He says. Anybody who doesn't believe he exists has no reason to do what he says. How can you be so stupid as to not understand that?
... and what it means to have a double standard.... Phat writes:
Nobody is expecting you to be a "spiritual martyr". Doing what God told you to do is not martyrdom.
... where we are expected to be spiritual martyrs... Phat writes:
I think my claim is every bit as believable as yours. At least I didn't deny what Jesus said.
... whereas the bloke who used to belive (and claims he was every bit as aware of and close to Jesus as I am now)... Phat writes:
Well yes, I do have a "free pass" not to do what some fictional character supposedly told ne to do. Why is that so hard to understand. But I'm not entirely "my own authority". Society is my authority.
... can now skip off with a free pass and be his own authority... Phat writes:
We have evidence for that. Prayer doesn't work. Remember?
... -in "communion" with other critical thinkers who claim that there is no God and that nobody else will fix humans and the planet except for the humans on the planet. Phat writes:
You're the arrogant one. And I have told you many, many, many times that we do NOT "have it all figured out" nor do we claim to. It's just that we HAVE to figure it out ourselves or it won't get figured out. You arrogant fascists have proven many times over that your way doesn't work. ... while these arrogant liberals think that they have it all figured out... By the way, remember our Bible study about "liberals"? Are you ever going to stop spitting on the Bible?
Phat writes:
Not indirectly. Directly.
... and that the conservatives are indirectly responsible for everything wrong with the world. Phat writes:
Case in point. The police are clearly tasked with things they shouldn't be - e.g. mental health care. The police have no more business dealing with meantal health issues than they do with open-heart surgery. But you conservatives want to give the police MORE funds to more efficiently kill the people whom you see as a threat.
This real life snapshot of what I see nearly EVERY day at my job in ever increasing similarities was not the fault of conservatives. Who is it that wants to defund the police? Phat writes:
You should be giving them the clothes off your back, according to Jesus. You guys claim that we Christians *should* be out witnessing to these people with little more than the clothes on our back! But what do you mean by "little more"? Do you think Christians should be "witnessing" by carrying guns?
Phat writes:
So do you.
Ninety percent of these people have substance abuse problems. Phat writes:
You don't know that, you hate-filled bastard.
They care little for the rest of society and would steal from their own Mother. Phat writes:
Why do you trust Him to give you "the power" when you don't trust Him to do anything else for you?
Yet Jesus promises that He will give us the power to fight these spiritual wars and win back the souls of the damned. Phat writes:
Your "spiritual warfare" doesn't work here because it's mindless drivel.
Funny how it never worked here...where our members are by and large prosperous. Phat writes:
Homes. And what is the secular solution to homelessness? That was easy.
Phat writes:
Will you ever read what I write? I have told you many times that I am NOT in favor of taxing the rich. I'm in favor of taxing the ordinary people and using the money to make life better for them so they can afford to pay the taxes. Oh, that's right---defund the police and raise taxes on wealthy conservatives!! I'm in favor of prison sentences for wealthy conservatives. And for anybody who promises to cut taxes."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
FYI, Zeus was not a "creator" in the same sense as your made-up God was. Zeus was the father of gods and humans but he "created" them in the old-fashioned way. And he had a father and mother.
Zeus forbids that *we* were created by "It". Phat writes:
Nobody did.
So you never saw the face of Jesus? Phat writes:
He can't be found anywhere. If He could, why would the streets be lawless? Perhaps He can be found on those lawless streets of Seattle. By the way, I don't know why you're picking on Seattle. I live in the murder capital of Canada but I wouldn't call the streets here lawless. (I don't live in "the hood" but I can see the hood from my window.)
Phat writes:
No. I have never claimed any such thing. I have said that He (if He existed) wants you to trust Him to take care of you.
Then again, you would claim that He commanded that we be poor before we could help them. Phat writes:
Why would I want to get them off drugs? I'm in favor of harm reduction. Make the drugs safer and stop wasting money trying to "get them off drugs" by throwing them in jail. Make their lives better and maybe they'll be less inclined to try to get a little satisfaction out of drugs.
If you can get most of them off of drugs... Phat writes:
They're not stealing "from society". They're primarily stealing from the rich - and it's debatable whether that's "wrong". Robin Hood was a hero, wasn't he? In fact, it could be argued that it's the rich who are stealing from society. ... and be aware that stealing from society is WRONG.... I think I have mentioned before that I used to work at one of Canada's largest drugstore chains. A few years ago, they reduced their efforts to combat shoplifting - presumably because it was costing them more than it was worth. But you won't be impressed by facts, will you?"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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