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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 317 of 895 (885735)
04-25-2021 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by dwise1
04-25-2021 6:06 AM


Re: Long Strange Trips From Long Ago
Dude! I will not even quote your message!
I added to it another story.
dwise1 writes:
Alcohol and grass is all I ever ingested in college. Never acid.
Thats why you are dwise1 and I am dcrazy1 I dont think the 1-15 acid and mushroom trips I took ever had long term effects on my mental health today, but I doubt I could prove it in a court. The more questions they asked about my past and about my present beliefs, the more I would hurt my own case!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2021 6:06 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 04-25-2021 11:58 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 328 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2021 3:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 318 of 895 (885736)
04-25-2021 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by AZPaul3
04-25-2021 1:56 AM


Re: The Secular 10 Commandments
AZPaul3 writes:
Brothers and sisters, are you lost? Do you find no cosmic purpose to life? Do you feel helpless within yourself and are you seeking the comfort and guidance of a greater power?
Welcome to our Sundae Service.
I like the ice cream pun! Nice touch!
If comfort and guidance are what you seek then you will find them in family, both the family you are given and the extended family you gather around you. The only purpose in this universe is the purpose you give it. If you have love to give then give it to family. They need it more than the ghost.
I was about ready to poke fun and ridicule this statement. Then I reread it. And thought to myself how old AZPaul hit the nail on the head! The Ghost does not need love. He needs simply for us to love...each other. And the demons hate this. Of course they hate everything...even creamy chocolate sundaes. They are incapable of love but quite capable of seduction.
Now on to ole Hitch. *listens*
quote:
...it's
usually wise when promulgating eternal
laws to be clear about what you mean
Priceless.
Hitch writes:
(1) do not condemn people on the basis of their ethnicity or their color.
(2) do not ever even think of using people as private property or as owned or as slaves
(3) despise those who use violence or the threat of it in sexual relations
(4) hide your face and weep if you dare to harm a child
(5)do not condemn people for the inborn nature (why would God create so many homosexuals only in order to torture and destroy them?)
(6) be aware that you too are an animal and dependent on the web of nature try and think and act accordingly
(7) don't imagine that you can escape judgment if you rob people with a false prospectus rather than with a knife
(8)Turn off that cell phone! you can have no idea how unimportant your call is to us
(9) denounce all jihadists and Crusaders for what they are: psychopathic criminals with ugly delusions and terrible sexual repressions
(10)be willing to renounce any God or any faith if any holy Commandments should contradict any of the above.
in short, don't swallow your moral code in tablet form
Not bad! Hitch proves that God loves atheists.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 1:56 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 895 (885743)
04-25-2021 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
04-25-2021 9:59 AM


CCoI Writ Large
You and I almost agree on the good ship Club:Christian.
You seem to think the biggest obstacle is Ignorance.
I think that the biggest obstacle is Arrogance.
I would even go so far as to rename it the CCoA

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 04-25-2021 9:59 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by ringo, posted 04-25-2021 11:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 329 of 895 (885757)
04-25-2021 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by AZPaul3
04-25-2021 3:00 PM


Re: Reasons
So much to argue against!
AZ writes:
Religion has been nothing but shock and disappointment to humanity.
Blanket statement and an appeal to popularity. There are numerous people who have benefitted from their spiritual walks. The problem which so many of you saw and hated was when religion (CCoI style) married politics back when Falwell Senior started the moral majority. And I suppose you could dredge up other examples from History...but for every one of them I could counter it with a positive event or events which helped the social order. In your specific case, I think you were one of those wired against being controlled.
Religion is a scourge that has burned a trail of blood across humanity for millennia.
Oh stop it. The atheistic Soviet Union was an equal if not worse example of a scourge.
Christianity has been especially (as) vile and violent as Islam has become today. We know the history of religions and we know the oppression of mind and spirit that is the hallmark of religion.
Though I agree that both Christianity and Islam have been vile and violent, I do not agree with your claim that Christianity causes oppression of mind and spirit. If anything, mind is renewed and spirit comes alive. I do realize, however, that you guys will bring up Christian avoidance schooling. So you do have a semi relevant point here....though not conclusive.
Religion may have been a useful evolutionary step in the newly sentient mind of the primitive human, but it quickly become organized, a yoke of control over the minds and bodies of the population. Religion is still used today to foment violence against the heathen who has impure thoughts or crosses himself the wrong way.
Religion is violence. Religion perpetrates evil in the world and is an excuse to perpetrate evil in the world.
The rants of an anti theist! You obviously see things differently than I do because you do not see God as a factor....only religion. Replace the word religion with Jesus in all of your rants and your argument falls apart.
Religion is an artifact of the developing primitive mind newly capable of symbolic thought and is now, and has been for millennia, no more than chains of enslavement on the human mind and body.
Quit fighting God. Of course we wont force Him on you, but we wont let you humanists force us into seeing nothing greater. We too have free will.
Religion insists on majikal thinking,
(true in most cases)
belief forced by violence, both physical and mental.
No. The violence will come because secularism will be pushed as mandatory. Freedom of religion will never be successfully suppressed.
It insists on blind belief against the face of reality and brings war against all that resist.
You and ringo do not get to define what judgements the thought police will enforce. atheism will never become the default option. There will be wars if you people insist on it.
The animosity is real and well deserved.
Put up your dukes old man. Lets settle this out back next to the sundial.Religion has devastated humanity and, like all such evil, needs to be resisted, vilified, scorned and insulted at every turn.
Like slavery, racism and misogyny, all bulwarks of the evil that is religion, that need to be burned from the soul of society, religion, itself, in all forms, needs to be left in the ash bin of history along with all its evils. The species has long outlived its need for ignorant majikal thinking. Our very survival on this planet depends now on recognizing and dealing with the reality of this world.
It will never happen. Prepare for the global fight. Too bad we are on opposite sides. I promise I wont shoot you...but Ocasio Cortez may get smacked a time or two.
First of all, religion is not the main problem. Human behavior is.
Second of all, Jesus created us long before we were even capable of making Him up. On that note (and claim) however, Jesus is about relationship rather than religion. And Christianity works best when the government does not claim to be Christian (and thus RWA Authoritarian). We have a unique set of problems here in the year 2021. Jesus wont simply solve them for society collectively. I will agree with my critics that WE must do it. I will defend belief in Jesus, however, in that I believe strongly that He (in Communion with our mind) will help us better than humans simply in consensus with each other. I know that you disagree strongly, but let me remind you of what you yourself have said:

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 3:00 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 4:17 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 331 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 5:19 PM Phat has replied
 Message 333 by ringo, posted 04-26-2021 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 332 of 895 (885771)
04-26-2021 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by AZPaul3
04-25-2021 5:19 PM


Re: Reasons
AZ writes:
No. Still works. Of course it would since Jesus is a member in the original set religion. Logic works that way.
And of course you see it that way because you only see Jesus as a character in a book. If the original set has always been a cultural meme, you would have a point.
AZ writes:
I'm not fighting god. I'm fighting the human stupidity, evil and violence that belief in such non-existent bull crap inevitably creates.
Oddly, you have a point. I'm still trying to figure out why what I am learning from atheists seems as if its cultural observation shown to me by God. I'll let you guys figure that one out!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 5:19 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 04-26-2021 11:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 338 of 895 (886005)
05-02-2021 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by AZPaul3
05-02-2021 3:22 AM


Re: Shocked and Disappointed(Shock and Awe)
You made me happy for a minute or two as I laughed at your humor.
Im not sure yet whether I'll let you get away with the excuse that religion has caused such great harm, but I get where you are coming from.
I'm glad you can make your opponents laugh before you attempt to slaughter our arguments.
AZ Does It.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2021 3:22 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 342 of 895 (886315)
05-15-2021 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by AZPaul3
05-09-2021 2:11 AM


The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
What better place to have a theistic argument than in an anti theist topic! Mr. Deity can move aside for a moment as I unpack this one.
Historic Christianity ascribed to by the early church Fathers such as Clement Of Rome is derisively slandered by many as "Biblical Christianity" though if one looks closely one can see the real counterfeit religion which is known as Progressive Christianity , Emergent Christianity or Liberal Christianity.
Here is an excerpt from the introduction to the pamphlet known as The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity:
quote:
In 1923, J.Gresham Machen, then a professor at Princeton Seminary, wrote his classic text, Christianity and Liberalism. The book was a response to the rise of liberalism in the mainline denominations of his own day. Machen argued that the liberal understanding of Christianity was, in fact, not just a variant version of the faith, nor did it represent simply a different denominational perspective, but was an entirely different religion. Put simply, liberal Christianity is not Christianity.
As I read the reasoning presented, I saw a lot of our own arguments in the literature! Lets compare and contrast
First, the Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity: (These ten principles are actually drawn from Philip Gulley's book=,If the Church Were Christian: Rediscovering the Values of Jesus.
1) Jesus is a model for living more than an object of worship. Our very own jar has repeatedly hammered home the point that Jesus life(as an example) was more important than His death (Burial and Resurrection).
quote:
When given the choice between worshiping Jesus (which requires that he is divine) and merely looking at Jesus as a good moral guide, liberals have always favored the latter.
2)Affirming People's Potential Is More Important Than Reminding Them Of Their Brokenness.
quote:
The core issue in this second tenet is the issue of sin. Are people sinners? If so, how big of a deal is it? More than that,how important is it that people know they are sinners?(...) After one has jettisoned the doctrine of original sin, rejected the idea that we are therefore sinners in need of salvation, and denied that Jesus died on the cross for sins, what is left of historical, biblical Christianity? Not much. Indeed, Machen would argue that we are left with something that is not Christianity. It is something else altogether.
3) The Work of Reconciliation Should Be Valued over Making Judgements. On the surface, this one seems rational. Judge not lest ye be judged...and all that? Lets examine the arguments:
quote:
Now we can begin by acknowledging that the goal here is commendable. Bringing reconciliation to broken human relationships is a fundamental biblical value. The Bible has much to say on topics like this.(Luke 17:4,Matthew 5:24,Acts 7:26 etc. Indeed,Gulley is correct that reconciliation between humans is an important as pect of Christianity. The problem though, is how Gulley (and many progressives) thinks that reconciliation is best achieved. And it is here that he takes a biblical value and puts a decidedly progressive/liberal spin on it. Reconciliation is best achieved,he argues, when the church is less concerned with "making judgements". If only the church would get rid of its "culture of judgement", stop offering "judgement and blame", and surrender its fondness for "black-and-white,either-or thinking"then it could better help people reconcile with one another. (...)But if these statements mean that the church should not be in the business of calling out people's behavior as sinful or wrong, then that is something very different.
jar has argued that "Original Sin" was nothing more than an evolved marketing tool. Original Sin was perhaps an original marketing tool, but sin and rebellion are intrinsic parts of human nature. We cant simply finagle science into excusing our behaviors.
quote:
TO SAY WE CAN NEVER DECLARE A BEHAVIOR TO BE WRONG IS PROFOUNDLY UNBIBLICAL
TO SAY WE CAN NEVER DECLARE A BEHAVIOR TO BE WRONG IS ULTIMATELY SELF-DEFEATING.
TO SAY WE CAN NEVER DECLARE A BEHAVIOR TO BE WRONG IS INEVITABLE SELECTIVE.

4) Gracious Behavior Is More Important Than Right Belief--We argue this one a lot here at EvC. Of course my arguments never get off the ground because I cant even get many of my opponents to agree that Jesus should be worshiped rather than simply humanized and emulated. In the world of EvC there is no "right" belief.
quote:
We certainly would agree that gracious behavior should characterize the church (though there may be disagreement about what exactly that entails)...The prioritization of behavior over theology sells well to our modern world because the general population already has the idea that people who care about theology are divisive, narrow, dogmatic,and even mean.(...)
Jesus never said that the problem with the Pharisees is that they are(were) too concerned with orthodoxy. The problem with the Pharisees was legalism and hypocrisy.
Moving on...
5) Inviting Questions Is More Valuable Than Supplying Answers--jar taught me this one, and I have grown a lot through its application.
quote:
It's an effective strategy. Position yourself as humble and inquisitive, merely on a journey of discovery. Then position the other side as less-than-humble dispensers of rigid dogma. (and ridicule and laugh at them as jar does to me) After all..."You're just a well-meaning seeker;they're mean,entrenched know-it-alls. Brilliant.(...)many people are familiar with churches in which quick and rather unsatisfying answers to honest questions about the faith are in ready supply. In these contexts, faith questions are discouraged. Should they arise, the expectation is that you will accept the answer you've been given
( as I am doing by sharing these arguments )serious intellectual engagement is not an option. IF the progressive commandment above is designed merely to correct this kind of approach(then) point taken.
But it would be a caricature to portray Christians (or Christianity) as a whole as anti-intellectual propaganda-dispensers.
Lets pause a moment before mentioning the next five.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2021 2:11 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by nwr, posted 05-15-2021 7:09 PM Phat has replied
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 05-15-2021 9:28 PM Phat has replied
 Message 347 by AZPaul3, posted 05-16-2021 1:08 AM Phat has replied
 Message 351 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2021 2:29 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 373 by Stile, posted 05-25-2021 4:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 344 of 895 (886324)
05-15-2021 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by nwr
05-15-2021 7:09 PM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
More to the point, few conservatives are Christians in the strict sense of the word.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by nwr, posted 05-15-2021 7:09 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 346 of 895 (886330)
05-16-2021 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by ringo
05-15-2021 9:28 PM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
ringo writes:
You openly reject what Jesus said, so you have no business claiming to have the "right" view of Christianity.
Perhaps my view is immaturely developed and in that sspirit I agree with you. I have no right.
I'm claiming that neither do any of you. Especially if you believe any of these faux commandments.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 05-15-2021 9:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 10:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 348 of 895 (886332)
05-16-2021 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by AZPaul3
05-16-2021 1:08 AM


Re: Phat Time
Thanks, AZ. I will only hijack the thread for a moment in order to present my rant over progressive Christianity to the anti-theists. Mr. Deity would likely mop the floor with me. But I try.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by AZPaul3, posted 05-16-2021 1:08 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 349 of 895 (886333)
05-16-2021 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by ringo
05-15-2021 9:28 PM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
quote:
Which Position Is Intellectually Irresponsible?
I suspect that part of the issue in play here is that progressives think it is intellectually irresponsible to make the kind of truth-claims that Christians have historically made. It sounds arrogant. Even cocksure. How could anyone know such a thing? (...)Imagine you recently took a class on the Civil War. If a friend then asks "Did Abraham Lincoln sign the Emancipation Proclamation?" and you answer "Yes", you could hardly be chided as an arrogant know-it-all. (...) Of course, progressives will argue this is a false comparison because we know Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation but we don't know that, say, Jesus was raised from the dead. But that is the very thing in dispute! (...) The only way that the progressive argument works is if one already "knows" the Bible is not the word of God and therefore can declare all its truth-claims to be dubious. But how does the progressive know this? Isn't it off-limits, from the progressive point of view,to claim absolute knowledge about such things? To put it another way, in order for the progressive position to be intellectually defensible, one would have to know that you can't know whether the resurrection actually happened or not. But that would require a high level of intellectual certainty-something the progressive claims one cannot have.
6) Encouraging the Personal Search Is More Important Than Group Uniformity--
7) Meeting Actual Needs Is More Important Than Maintaining Institutions--
8)Peacemaking Is More Important Than Power--
9) We Should Care More about Love and Less about Sex--
10) Life in This World Is More Important Than the Afterlife--
So there you have it. Care to discuss any of them?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 05-15-2021 9:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by anglagard, posted 05-16-2021 9:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 353 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2021 9:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 10:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 356 of 895 (886354)
05-16-2021 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by ringo
05-16-2021 10:46 AM


Re: The Ten Commandments Of Progressive Christianity
ALL truth claims are dubious without evidence. Until we have evidence that the Bible is "the word of God", we should be just as dubious as we are about the Book of Mormon.
So essentially what you are trying to do is take the absolute truth claims of one belief...Historic Christianity...and strip them of their claim to be right...and hang that title instead on "evidence pending" or science. Quite clever and bold, but hardly enforceable. As for the Book of Mormon...it isn't even in the same league with the historic Christian faith. A modern cult at best.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by DrJones*, posted 05-16-2021 4:20 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 358 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 9:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 359 of 895 (886360)
05-17-2021 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by ringo
05-16-2021 10:46 AM


Some Idiot & Some Deity.
ringo writes:
Phat, quoting some idiot, writes:
The only way that the progressive argument works is if one already "knows" the Bible is not the word of God and therefore can declare all its truth-claims to be dubious.
Wrong.
The idiot in question is this author:
quote:
Michael J. Kruger (PhD, University of Edinburgh) is President and the Samuel C. Patterson Professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte, NC, and the author of a number of books and articles on early Christianity. He is one of the leading scholars today in the study of the origins of the New Testament, particularly the development of the New Testament canon and the transmission of the New Testament text. He is the author of numerous books including The Gospel of the Savior (Brill, 2005), The Heresy of Orthodoxy (Crossway, 2010, with Andreas Köstenberger), Canon Revisited (Crossway, 2012), and The Question of Canon (IVP, 2013). He is also the editor of A Biblical-Theological Introduction to the New Testament (Crossway, 2016), and co-editor of The Early Text of the New Testament (Oxford, 2012), and Gospel Fragments (Oxford, 2009).
Of course I expect that the lot of you are unimpressed with any scholastic achievement in a reformed theological seminary. Perhaps you would listen to some simple guy like "Mr.Deity". I am unimpressed with his scholastic credentials also.
To Wit:
Brian Dalton is a former Mormon, or "Formon". He says that some contributing parts of his de-conversion are the tenet of Mormonism that God punishes people by darkening their skin and the fact that evidence contradicts various claims of the Book of Mormon. Dalton is now an atheist. Dalton came up with the concept for the Mr. Deity web series after his reflections on the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami. Aside from being the actor to portray Mr. Deity, he is the director, writer, cinematographer, and editor.
In other words he is an actor and director of his own show. (Something that would get ire and disdain were he a theist.)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 05-16-2021 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by PaulK, posted 05-17-2021 4:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 05-17-2021 10:02 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 362 by AZPaul3, posted 05-20-2021 5:15 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 364 of 895 (886541)
05-23-2021 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by AZPaul3
05-20-2021 5:15 AM


Re: Some Idiot & Some Deity.
I'm hoping that your wiseguy comment regarding truth being revealed by a "sacred universe" is tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise I will be forced to label you as one of *them* who worship the creation and ignore the Creator.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by AZPaul3, posted 05-20-2021 5:15 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by AZPaul3, posted 05-23-2021 1:49 PM Phat has replied
 Message 366 by ringo, posted 05-23-2021 2:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 369 by anglagard, posted 05-23-2021 2:56 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 367 of 895 (886547)
05-23-2021 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by ringo
05-23-2021 2:07 PM


Re: Some Idiot & Some Deity.
Humans can't create. All that we do is recreate (or reassemble) that which has already been created. There is no new knowledge under the Sun (or Son, if you prefer)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by ringo, posted 05-23-2021 2:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by ringo, posted 05-23-2021 9:35 PM Phat has replied

  
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