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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 166 of 530 (884789)
03-07-2021 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by PaulK
03-07-2021 6:21 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Morality having no truth value is not the same as a denial of moral fact.
A moral fact would be that Texans think Oklahomans don't wash on Sundays. I will not dispute that Texans think this. The moral judgement being that Oklahomans are smelly dirty critters. That now forms a meme in your morality, like thousands of others.
What is the truth value of this morality? It hasn't got one.
We talk about your morality being true. That's shorthand for your moral judgements being compatible with mine.
No, I do not deny moral facts, which have a truth value. I deny the concept of a truth value as applied to morality.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 6:21 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by PaulK, posted 03-08-2021 1:25 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 167 of 530 (884791)
03-08-2021 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 7:21 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Morality having no truth value is not the same as a denial of moral fact.
Really? Because a moral fact is the same thing as a moral truth and you certainly denied that.
quote:
A moral fact would be that Texans think Oklahomans don't wash on Sundays.
No, it isn’t. If you want to communicate you really shouldn’t make up your own meanings.
quote:
What is the truth value of this morality? It hasn't got one.
Obviously it does. Whether or not Texans believe that Oklahomans don’t wash on Sundays has a truth value. Whether or not Oklahomans don’t wash on Sundays has a truth value. Whether Oklahomans are smelly dirty critters has a truth value. Whichever you meant you are not only wrong to call it a moral fact you are also wrong to say it doesn’t have a truth value. But they aren’t moral facts since none of them has any moral component. They are just putative facts.
quote:
We talk about your morality being true. That's shorthand for your moral judgements being compatible with mine.
That would be another case of you inventing your own terminology and causing confusion.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 7:21 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2021 10:45 AM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 168 of 530 (884795)
03-08-2021 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by PaulK
03-08-2021 1:25 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
That would be another case of you inventing your own terminology and causing confusion.
That may be so but that still doesn't negate the fact that relative morality is the only morality that exists in our world.
And no matter how the ivory tower may twist their philosophies because of it we do not need to accept FGM as some morally acceptable cultural practice.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by PaulK, posted 03-08-2021 1:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by PaulK, posted 03-08-2021 12:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 169 of 530 (884796)
03-08-2021 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Phat
03-06-2021 12:02 PM


Re: Charismatic Chaos Revisited
Phat writes:
My rants are part of my processing.
This is a discussion site. You can do your processing on your own time.
Phat writes:
Your problem is that you went out of your way to avoid confirmation bias...
You should always go out of your way to avoid confirmation bias.
Phat writes:
... and ended up confirming the opposite....
Not at all. Lack of confirmation for one idea is not automatic confirmation of the opposite (if there even is an opposite).
Phat writes:
How did you conclude that God did not exist when you once believed He did exist?
I haven't concluded that a god or gods doesn't exist. I've concluded that there's no reason to think that they do exist, the same as there's no reason to conclude that leprechauns exist.
Phat writes:
...you realized that you never heard any audible answers or encouragements from the Deity Himself, right?
Wrong. As I have told you before, I have heard strange noises, etc. I didn't make the same mistake that you make and assume an explanation.
Phat writes:
You probably read a few scholarly articles on the phenomenon of inner voices and of how it was generally depicted among psychotics.
The onus is on you here to expalin how those scholarly explanations are wrong.
Phat writes:
How did God become unreal to you?
Something that is not real can not "become unreal".
Phat writes:
How did the book become merely a product of humans...
Take out the word "merely". All books are a product of humans - and I respect the Bible as a book more than you do.
Phat writes:
... and not a rhema word confirmed through the Holy Spirit?
Again, the onus is on you to explain why your particular doctrines come directly from God while those in the Qur'an and Book of Mormon do not.
Phat writes:
Matter of fact, how did you willfully and actively choose to deny that the Holy Spirit is real?
The same way that you willfully and actively choose to deny that leprechauns are real.
Phat writes:
You yourself claim that you once accepted such beliefs.
And you yourself claim that you once believed in Santa Claus.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 03-06-2021 12:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 170 of 530 (884798)
03-08-2021 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
03-07-2021 9:19 AM


Re: AZ Paul, J.Noble Daggett, and Anti Em.
Phat writes:
I will NOT doubt...and would feel personally ashamed were I to embrace doubt willfully.
So you're infallible.
Phat writes:
AZ can and likely will use the vain imaginations of J.Noble Daggett....
Just out of curiosity, have you actually seen True Grit or are you just quoting somebody who quoted somebody who quoted somebody who quoted somebody who quoted somebody?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 03-07-2021 9:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 171 of 530 (884799)
03-08-2021 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by AZPaul3
03-08-2021 10:45 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
That may be so but that still doesn't negate the fact that relative morality is the only morality that exists in our world
Except you say that it doesn’t exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2021 10:45 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2021 1:07 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 172 of 530 (884800)
03-08-2021 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by PaulK
03-08-2021 12:23 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Your poor interpretation.
Morality certainly exists, subjective and relative, peoples' moral opinions exist.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by PaulK, posted 03-08-2021 12:23 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by PaulK, posted 03-08-2021 1:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 173 of 530 (884802)
03-08-2021 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by AZPaul3
03-08-2021 1:07 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
If there aren’t any moral truths, that’s nihilism, not relativism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2021 1:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2021 9:37 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 174 of 530 (884816)
03-08-2021 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by PaulK
03-08-2021 1:40 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Moral truth as in someone's opinion? Subjective? Born of acculturation?
Or are you thinking some other kind of moral truth?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by PaulK, posted 03-08-2021 1:40 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2021 12:38 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 175 of 530 (884818)
03-09-2021 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by AZPaul3
03-08-2021 9:37 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Moral truth as in someone's opinion? Subjective? Born of acculturation?
Relativism is the idea that the truth-value of moral statements is relative. The idea that moral statements have no truth-value is nihilism. You’ve explicitly claimed the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2021 9:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 1:22 AM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 176 of 530 (884819)
03-09-2021 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by PaulK
03-09-2021 12:38 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Again, your misinterpretation.
Regardless, moral opinions (truths) have a truth value.
Is your definition of moral truth limited to the subjective opinion of the holder born of the holder's experience or does it include something else?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2021 12:38 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2021 1:36 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 177 of 530 (884820)
03-09-2021 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by AZPaul3
03-09-2021 1:22 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Again, your misinterpretation.
Again the problem is that you say things you don’t mean.
quote:
Is your definition of moral truth limited to the subjective opinion of the holder born of the holder's experience or does it include something else?
My definition of a moral truth is simple. It is a moral claim that is true. If it’s just a subjective opinion that would be doubtful. Is it your assertion that - in the case of morality - subjective opinions are always true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 1:22 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 2:21 AM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 178 of 530 (884821)
03-09-2021 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
03-09-2021 1:36 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Is it your assertion that - in the case of morality - subjective opinions are always true?
From whose perspective?
And a follow on, please.
Other than personal subjective opinions are there other sources of moral truths?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2021 1:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2021 2:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 179 of 530 (884822)
03-09-2021 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by AZPaul3
03-09-2021 2:21 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
From whose perspective?
That is an irrelevance if the claim is actually true.
quote:
Other than personal subjective opinions are there other sources of moral truths?
Shall we sort out your position before we get on to the more complex and nuanced subject of mine.
In your first post to this subthread you asserted:
Where does this eminent philosopher get off on calling differing opinions on morality differing truths?
Now it seems that not only did you misread the essay, you actually agree with the position you falsely attributed to him. The position you angrily reject in the quote above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 2:21 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2021 3:12 AM PaulK has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 180 of 530 (884823)
03-09-2021 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by PaulK
03-09-2021 2:32 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
From whose perspective?
That is an irrelevance if the claim is actually true.
And who makes that determination?
Shall we sort out your position before we get on to the more complex and nuanced subject of mine.
Sure.
The position you angrily reject in the quote above.
Ok.
your first post ... you asserted ... you misread the essay ... you actually agree ... you falsely attributed ...
You got me.
We done?
If so, who then makes the determination that a moral truth is true?
And, other than personal and shared opinions, where does this moral truth come from?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2021 2:32 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by FLRW, posted 03-09-2021 12:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 03-09-2021 7:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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